Genevieve  0:07  

Welcome to I Could Never… A podcast about non monogamy and the many ways it can look. I'm Genevieve from Chill Polyamory on Instagram, Tiktok and YouTube, and I'm joined, as always, by my co host and partner, Ishik.

Ishik  0:18  

That's right, feeling like I was born sexy yesterday, yeah, and still sexy today. Yeah, I’m feeling myself a little bit today, but it's not just you and it's not just me. We have also a guest here with us, and our guest today is Hannah. 

Hannah 0:31

Hey. 

Ishik 0:31

Hannah is based in Argentina, and has a very complex polycule with many long term, close relationships, and we're super excited to hear more about it. We’re super happy to have you.

Hannah  0:46  

Yeah, I'm very happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me. 

Ishik  0:48  

Yeah, but before we can talk about that, we have to turn our eyes towards the mystical, lovely, Magical Girl transformation that results in everyone's favorite anime protagonist, Vibe or Vent!

Genevieve  1:05  

It's Vibe or Vent time. For anyone listening for the first time, we always like to start off the show with a little icebreaker called Viber vent where we'll each take a beat to share a bit about something that's either really making us happy recently or something that sucks that we need to get off our chest. So ishik, would you like to start us out?

Ishik  1:24  

I would like to start us out, as I told you before this episode started. I am, I'm psyched. We just released the first episode of season two yesterday. That's dating this episode and it, I don't know. I just like, in doing that, like, going through the old episodes and, like, updating the website and stuff like that. And I'm gonna say it, I'm gonna own my dub, we make a goddamn good podcast. 

Hannah 1:51

You definitely do.

Genevieve  1:52  

Yeah we're proud of it. Yeah, yeah.

Ishik  1:54  

I just feel proud of it. It's something that I'm excited to like, I just like looking through the list of stories and like, these are some good ass topics and some interesting stories, and I'm happy to get it out there. So that's me. I'm vibing today, but you don't have to be vibing today. Hannah, I'd love to throw over to you. Are you vibing, or are you venting today?

Hannah  2:14  

I think I could go for vibing, even though I had a bit of a rough day. But, you know, like changing out of it and just getting in a good mood. I'm just starting the fourth year of college. I'm studying to be a therapist, and next year I'm going to do my fifth year, and I'm over 30, so I'm very proud of acing a lot of exams, and I am very, very proud of myself. And I actually got told by the chief of psychiatry of the place that I want to work at, that I already have a place there whenever I get my degree, and I am very, very pumped about it, like the future seems right. 

Genevieve 2:50

Congratulations. 

Hannah 2:51

Thank you.

Genevieve  2:53  

Well, I was going to vent, but as always happens, every time I get with cool people that I like, I start vibing. I'm in a much better mood, but I can still stick with my vent.

Ishik 3:00

It doesn't have to, you do whatever you want. 

Genevieve 3:02

The German elections just happened. So let me bring the mood right down. I just Yeah, I like. That tends to be a thing where every time I want to vent about something it is about something really big, about the rise of fascism around the world. And this is something that I'm encouraging other people to do too whenever I talk to them, but I need to take my own advice. I pace myself with the intake of all of the news. It will find me. You know, I don't need to stay glued to it, and I'm not really risking being uninformed. It's really more like, do I want it to rule my day and keep me in a really low mood where I'm of no good to myself or other people, you know? So I'm gonna find my own system of batching my intake of it, I think, and just see what works. Because this is just, it's, it's gonna be a long, long process of us needing to keep our energy up. So, yeah, I guess that's a vent slash vibing on something. 

Ishik 4:10

It’s a vent. I mean talking about fascism.

Genevieve 4:15

But I'm happy to be here.

Hannah  4:17  

I totally feel you. The same thing happened here. Our current president is defending Elon Musk gesture, very, very big air quotes, yeah, and just everything, like they all we are also pulled out of the World Health Organization. We also have, like, everything is just going backwards the whole world.

Genevieve  4:39  

Yeah. But we are here to celebrate you today. Hannah, yeah, this is all about you today. So we like to start by getting a sense of our guests' current relationships. Polycule, however you want to describe it, what the structure looks like at the moment. So can you tell us a bit about who's  close to you in your life right now. 

Hannah  5:01  

Okay, this is very complicated.

Genevieve  5:04  

Take your time. 

Hannah  5:06  

So we have, like, we have basic structure, and then we have, like, an extended follicle, so to speak, our basic structure. I always, we always said that it's like, it's a square, so in Spanish, if, in case, anyone who knows Spanish, here is we say that it's a quadricula instead of a polycule, which would be polycula, it's a quadricula.

Ishik  5:25  

That's very that's really cute.

Hannah  5:29  

Because I am dating Ivo and Ivan, who are both called Ivan, and they are both dating Mika, who is one of my best friends. So we are four here, and two years ago, Ivo and Mika had a baby who is my daughter in law. And I don't really know that's not the word, my goddaughter. There you go, my goddaughter. And also, Ivan's got a daughter. So we are, like, kind of, in that sense, very tightly knit. I spent a lot of my week babysitting and spending time with them. So one of my boyfriends has a partnership, a platonic partnership, with Lucero, also one of my best friends. It's the one that I'm currently at their desk. They made me lunch, and they made everything possible so that I could be in this podcast today. They're amazing. 

Ishik 6:15

Thank you, Lucero. 

Hannah 6:16

Thank you Lucero. And Lu has two partners who are actually currently in the United States, and one partner who lives with them here. Those partners have other partners. And I could keep going forever. We get out a chart. I'm very close friends with the US partners. We all role play together. It's a whole thing. And I was, I was dating someone else last year, and so it's a very open thing. We like to call ourselves non hierarchical. It's a goal, not like. We aim towards that constantly checking our couples privilege, even amongst the club, that we are for things that happen, that are happening, but, yeah, we're open to anything that might come along and happen.

Genevieve  7:05  

So you said you use non hierarchical, and that's a goal. You also mentioned couples privilege, for anyone who's not really familiar with those terms, can you tell us a bit about what those mean to you?

Hannah  7:15  

Of course. To me specifically, because it's not the same to everyone saying non hierarchical. It's basically that everyone has a seat at the table for a new decision, major decision that is made. It does not mean that everyone has the same priority over said decisions. For example, I have a daughter in law, god daughter. I have a goddaughter. The parents of said goddaughter, of course, have priority over those kinds of decisions related to her that I do not but I am very close to her. I am her godmother, so I have privileges that the guys in the US have basically nothing to do with. So that hierarchy tries to be realistic and basically to be very clear with everyone, like, Hey, these are our priorities. I spend most of my time with these people. You are also important to me, but there's this amount of energy that I am willing to put into this relationship. And this does not mean that you cannot ask for more, and we cannot have those conversations. You're not out of the decision. It is just a matter of energy and time being a very limited resource. So that's what I mean by that. And couples privilege. What I mean is, usually I call it structural hierarchy. I don't know. For example, when we were planning to all go live together in the beginning, Ivo, who lives with Mika, didn't want to have a room of his own. He was like, it's not it doesn't matter if I don't have a bed and I don't have a room. And I looked at him and I said, Do you realize that this means that your room is with Mika and I do not have the opportunity of sleeping with you other than in your guys' room or mine? It's like, you cannot invite me to your room like this would create this structural hierarchy of you have your room by default. You sleep with her. And he opened his eyes and was like, oh, okay, no, no, that's not what I want. But yeah, those kinds of things we kind of like have to catch ourselves, because it does happen, even if you are very aware of it, it does happen, yeah?

Genevieve  9:14  

And it shows the benefit of including people at the seat at the table, right? Because ultimately, if he didn't want his own room. He can choose that, but like you get to weigh in on something he didn't consider before the decision is made. So I love that. That's a very practical example. 

Hannah  9:29  

Yeah, he didn't realize that he really, really wanted his own room, but that was a different conversation. But yeah, I got to weigh in.

Ishik  9:39  

Yeah, and I appreciate that his response was so receptive. 

Genevieve  9:42  

Yeah, I love when a partner says, oh shit. Thanks for telling me. Yeah, you know it can be that simple. So it sounds like it's that way for you too. 

Hannah 9:47

Yeah. 

Ishik  9:48  

And that's what I was hearing. And it's, it's like, cool. That's like, it's not a matter of, like, being perfect. I think so often people are like, Oh my god, how am I? There's so many rules. There's so many things to keep in mind. How am I to be perfect? It's like, it's not about being perfect. It's just about wanting to not hurt your partners. Yeah, so

Genevieve  10:03  

I'm curious, do you have a typical week, like a typical routine? What does that look like for you?

Hannah  10:10  

I do. It kind of changes semester to semester, when I get my classes and I know what my actual timetable is going to be, but I have one night with Ivo, because we don't live together. We schedule, and it could not be every week. Maybe one night with Ivan, because we live together. So we spend more time together by default, so we see what time of it is intentional, and how much time of it is, and depending on the week and our desire, I usually babysit at least two times a week for about four to six hours. And I role play every week. Once a week, it's very personal and like something that I would not give up on, and every other week I have a kung fu class.

Ishik  10:57  

Just a quick clarification for the listeners. When you say role play. Do you mean like sexy role play, or like role playing games?

Hannah  11:06  

I don't schedule my sexy role play. No, I have a weekly TTRPG role playing night in which I get together with, actually one of my partners, Lucero, that we were talking about, and their two partners from the United States, and another girl who is friends with them from the US. So it's kind of like, very big thing. But yeah, I usually have, I have three nights a week that are kind of like, okay, this happens this night, this happens this night. And then I have four Freer nights that I usually divided amongst my partners, my friends, my just, I need a night for myself, please. 

Genevieve  11:46  

Kind of moments of alone time? 

Ishik  11:47  

Yeah, you know, I appreciate that, both in when you are discussing your typical week and like, how you're setting up the free time that you have to, like, split up between different partners, as well as when you were laying out sort of the structure of your polycule and your extended polycule, the equal like the way that you were giving, in your words, equal weight to these different relationships, right? That it wasn't just like, oh, well, I'm in romantic relationship with Ivo and Ivan and then everybody else is like, secondary. It's really like, it comes through as you're describing it, the equal importance that these other types of relationships have, both in how you kind of conceptualize this complex polycule, but also literally in the tangible time that you spend with these different relationships. I think that's really great, and I think that can probably help people who maybe are like, but, but, how do you have not hierarchy? And it's like, like that. That's how.

Hannah  12:51  

Yeah my friends have a seat at the table, as much as my partners do. One thing that I see sometimes in like people who try to be non hierarchical, is that they think that it means that you cannot make your own decisions, and everyone has to be able to have their say, and like you have to have a vote for everything that you need to, that you want to do. And it's like, sometimes it's just like, This is important to me. I'm going to do it anyway, and I'm going to do this with these other people, but I truly do want to know how you feel, how I can help you with it. Like, is there anything that you need? And like, for example, when initially one of my partners moved to the other city, and he was starting to be, like, much further away, we had that conversation, and it was like, well, but I need you to get a car, because otherwise we will never see each other. And he did, and I'm going to get my license, my driver's license, so I can go visit you and, like, that kind of compromise and finding each other in those ways.

Genevieve  13:51  

Yeah, asking, how does this affect you, or what do you need? That's different than asking for permission. Exactly.

Ishik  13:57  

A lot of people imply that, like, yeah, that you like, lose autonomy, you lose freedom. And it's like, no, this is the opposite of that. You have absolute autonomy. You just also aren't a dick. Like, hey, this is going to Yeah, just don't be a dick. It's like, man, just don't be a dick. Like, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what else to tell you.

Hannah  14:22  

But also, like, I think that a lot of people who are non hierarchical have this idea of that. That means that every one of your partners have to be the same. But you can have comet relationships. You can have like, I don't know, friends with benefit relationships at some point. And you can have a relationship with someone and be like, okay, but with you specifically. And it has nothing to do with my other partners, but with you specifically I want, I want it to be up to this point, and if the other person is not okay with with it, they can walk away. But as long as you're clear with it, you're not doing anything wrong, like by giving less less of your time, less of your. Energy to a specific relationship. That was something that I struggled with last year, understanding that it was okay for me to not want more with someone who wanted more with me. 

Ishik  15:10  

You know, I would love to know if you're willing to share, if it's okay to share. You know, what was the circumstance that you were referring to last year? Are you? Are you willing to talk about that?

Hannah  15:22  

No yeah, I am. I'm comfortable with that. It was more time commitment, and I didn't feel as much. Yeah, I was expecting to be super in love, to be very infatuated with this person, and this person was with me, and like I didn't have that in me. I didn't feel as comfortable sexually as I did with my other partners. I remember feeling very guilty about not being able to offer sexuality, which kind of like sounds awful in retrospect, and not being able to offer as much of my time, and not being able to be there, but not being able. Not in that I was forbidden from. It was just like, not, not what I really felt like I wanted. I started like, forcing myself to go more, to spend more time, to like, try to figure out what was going wrong, that I didn't want to like, have as much intimacy. And it was in the end, looking back, it was just a thing, like, I didn't feel less comfortable, and that should have been okay, but it wasn't. And, and I'm not trying to, like, trash talk her, like she was very sweet, very caring, and I really, really felt for her. And in the end, she was willing to work through everything up until the last second, and I just couldn't. De escalation was not in the cards. It was all or nothing. I couldn't do it all so I had to do nothing. 

Genevieve  16:52  

Yeah, recognizing just what feels organic and like what like, letting the relationship tell you how it's going to be, you know, like, apparently I want this, or apparently I don't want this, you know, not trying to force it.

Hannah  17:04  

Yeah, I wanted something more, I don't know if I want to say casual, but more like, Yeah, more organic, more like, something that could morph and even flow from intimacy, from sexual intimacy to not, and something like that. And that wasn't possible without hurting a lot of feelings. And I am very bad at being the one who hurts feelings. It makes me very, very uncomfortable. So I couldn't stay. But, yeah, my life is very full, and I think I was just saturated.

Ishik  17:36  

Nah, you know, actually, it just kind of seems like this relationship didn't work. So I think you might not be polyamorous. 

Hannah  17:43  

Oh, yeah, right. No, actually, what's happening is I'm dating two guys and she was a girl, so I'm not bisexual.

Music

Genevieve  18:01  

Sometimes people see the finished happy picture and they're like, how? So do you have an example of like, something that you worked through on your way to getting where you are initially?

Hannah  18:11  

It was very hierarchical. It had a lot of rules, a lot of them, and they stopped making sense, like three months in. We can call him Faco, so we know who we are talking about. We started doing monogamy with Faco. Then we opened up the relationship, and he got very, very intense with a girl that he met on an dating app, and he broke, like, three or four agreements, and I found out about all of them at the same time. And it was like, okay, half of these agreements, we are only doing them because you asked me to and I do not want them. And I told him, we can work through this, but I can't work through this and go back to hierarchy, because, evidently, that's not what either of us want. No, no, I want it because, like. No, I don't want you to change your relationship with your other partner to fit into this mold, just just to feel safer. You know, let's rework it and try to figure out how we move out of this hierarchy. They, over time, did that, and then, like, that relationship ended, like three years later, completely unrelated to polyamory, we just couldn't work through on other issues that we had, but we have, I was going to say kids. We had pets together. We had pets together, and we decided on a co parenting schedule, and I realized that, to me, he was family, and I didn't want to lose him from my life. And we started getting closer, kind of like a de escalation and re escalation, but in another way. And right now, I consider him like family that I would never lose. But yeah, it was just kind of like that. First, you know, I started dating Ivo almost immediately. I also was dating another guy from my work. And eventually I got more seriously with Ivo, and we started doing this, actually, like kitchen table polyamory, thing in which we were all friends, and I broke up with my other partner because he was monogamous and he wanted to never see my other partners, and it started feeling like I was hiding my life. So I didn't I didn't want that. I didn't want love to be something that had to be hidden from me, or that I had to hide from someone, and if I had jealousy, jealousy is a perfectly normal human emotion, and it can work through it, but love is more important to me. So like, I started saying, like, okay, hierarchy. And then three months later, was like, No, I read all these things, and this is wrong, and this is not the way I want to do it. And I just kind of, like, revamped the entire relationship. And actually, kind of like, what have, what I decided there is, like, just kept me going up until now. I think, like, seven years later, I'm like, Yeah, that's what I want.

Genevieve  21:02  

It's really cool to hear about the evolution of things and how collaborative that was. You mentioned that this partner that you started polyamory with, you ended the relationship, and now you're restarting, or, like, re escalating. Like, a lot of people restructure their relationships, where they don't want to throw out everything. How did you determine what you were going to stop doing and what you were going to keep doing? Like, what were those conversations like? 

Hannah  21:31  

The thing is that I know that a lot of people do kind of, like, have that conversation and keep going from that point I had to break up and like, be like, okay, just co parent for a bit, and then seeing him and be like, Okay, no, but I love you. And slowly we started kind of, like, very organically, just okay, I'm gonna hang out with the kids, big air quotes. How about we have dinner together while we do that? How about I take care of the other dogs while you go on vacation and kind of, like, started this back and forth, and eventually, like, without really having a big conversation about it. I remember that it took me a while to realize that it was a de escalation, re escalation. In my mind, I was like, breaking up and then, like, figuring out, and then I realized, oh, yeah, I'm escalating. Just that escalating does not have to mean a romantic relationship. In this case, it's a familial one. He kept being non monogamous, but currently only has one partner. They are both non monogamous and open to the idea of having other partners. And she is currently my friend, and I love her to pieces. She's amazing. The best thing that ever happened to him. 

Genevieve  22:43  

I love that. I love being able to see, oh, great. Y'all, y'all fit. Y'all are perfect in that way. And seeing it bring out the best of somebody that you care about. It's really nice. 

Hannah  22:55  

Yeah, absolutely. And like, not being like, I never felt with her, like jealousy or something like that. I remember when he started dating her, the moment that he decided that he wanted to live with her, I was like, Can I meet her? Because she's going to be living with my pets, and I don't want it to be awful. And we met, and instantly, like her, she's great. And then when they were going to move together. They went out on like a skip eight from a weekend, and I was at their house taking care of the pets, and I left her, left them both like a posted on the fridge saying that I was very excited for this new journey for them, and that that I like love this for them, and I'm very happy that I knew two people that I cared about and were very good pet parents. Were going to live with my pets, and I left them in the fridge, and I think that they kept it up for a year. That's very good.

Ishik  23:52  

That's so funny too, because that actually, like, maybe it should have occurred to me sooner, but like, that's a really good way to explain the idea of compersion to monogamous people, where it's like, Okay, what if you have a really good friend, like your best friend or something, and they start dating somebody, and you're like, Wow, I love that partner for them, it's really good for them. Like, it makes me so happy to see them together. It's like, that's compersion. Yeah, you just described compersion.

Hannah  24:16  

But you can also feel it for people that you have romantic feelings for. I remember with Faco, it was compersion always came very easy to me, even when we were dating. Every time that he started dating someone new, I was like, Yes, tell me all about it. The happiest, you know, like it doesn't happen the same way to me with every relationship. And I think that that's a good thing to acknowledge that compersion doesn't it's not that you can feel compersion or you can't. It's sometimes relationship dependent, and like however you know you're a human that can have the full range of human emotion, and sometimes it will come easier than others, and that's also okay.

Genevieve  24:57  

Was it odd to experience like tension or jealousy, when you had felt compersion before, and now you're like, what? Why am I not feeling this?

Hannah  25:08  

The thing is that I never stopped feeling compression when I felt jealousy.

Genevieve  25:12  

So you felt them at the same time, yeah.

Hannah  25:16  

So that was so tricky. It was at the same time tricky and kind of encouraging in a way, because, like, if I can still feel this compersion, then it will be okay, you know, I can go through the motions of this jealousy that I'm feeling and finding out, like, what's the need that's not being addressed, or what's just my insecurity? We all go to therapy so, or have gone at some point, so just kind of like working through it, but, but, yeah, no, I think that. I don't think that compersion is that prerequisite to being polyamorous, but it does make it a fuck ton easier.

Genevieve  25:54  

You know, on that, do you actually feel like your polyamory is in a place of ease at this point, or are there any major conflicts that still come up just because of how complex everything is? 

Hannah  26:06  

The thing is that I think that if you had asked me that question a few years ago, I would have had a million different answers for it, but you got me at a very good time. I guess in my polyamorous journey, I'm very much at peace with a lot of it.

Ishik  26:22  

Well, I would actually love to ask, what was it like a couple of years ago that you feel like, what was the thing? 

Hannah  26:30  

Probably a lot of couples privilege, like, the before moving like, the before the kid who came around, like, how is that going to be? Like, my relationship is about to change, and it wasn't my choice. And now what? And I didn't, I don't feel like I had a choice in this, and how do I accept this? Or do I have to walk away? And like, I had a lot of fears about that, and I had a lot of like, okay, so if the priority is the kid, does that mean that the priority is the like, my metamorph instead of me? Or why instead? Can we both be the priority? What's like, I was very much like, tangled up in a knot. We had a bit of this couples privilege issue in which, like, I was informed we are going to have a kid, instead of being asked what I needed about it. It's like I knew from the beginning that they were going to have a kid at some point, and we had talked about it, but the moment that they made the decision, I was informed, and that was something that we had to have the discussion later, of like, hey, next time if you inform me, I'm going to kick your ass. I want to be like, in on this, because it's something that changes your life so much like I had to decide, do I want to be involved in this kid's life when I don't want to have kids, right? So do I want to be super involved in this kid's life, or do I want to get further away, like put distance between me and my boyfriend and me and my best friend? So it's a big decision, you know, so being able to be part of the decision is great, and it's what will happen in the future, in the moment we are all learning, and it's like, it's our first time being alive, and also our first time being polyamorous. The moment that Mika was like, oh my god, I think I might be pregnant. She bought a pregnancy test, and we were all together when she took it, and we were all together to find out the gender, the sex, and we were all together for most of it like that. She really wanted us there in the birth but the hospital didn't allow for more than one person because a couple privilege, even in a state level. But you know, it's, it's just been a wonderful journey. It has ups and downs, like, in the beginning, where you don't know where everything fits, you know, like, Where does my relationship fit and this kid fit? And everything we now have the system of, like, a date a week. So we know, so we know we have that. And then like, and then I take care of the kid, and other times to also give because some breathing room, because being a mom full time, it's kind of a lot, yeah, but yeah, it's I've been involved throughout the pregnancy and from day one, and I am very happy about it. It's not something that I felt would happen in my life, and it's something that polyamory actually brought along and and it's for the better. I was so afraid that whenever they had a kid like I was going to be less important or less of a priority. And I don't think that I consider that my priorities would change too. Mika sometimes calls me her co mom, which is a term that I sometimes get uncomfortable with, because I don't want to overstep, you know, but she's the light in my eyes and my whole world. Honestly, we spend a lot of time together. We are building this pond like a very close one, the first and so far, only night that she spent the whole night away from her mother is. Was with me. They went to a wedding, and I spent the whole night with her. I don't know. I think it's a very beautiful relationship. I get to constantly get to know her, because kids change so fast. And I go away for a week, and I come back to a different kid that has different needs, learning everything from scratch, you know, and have a ton of personality.

Genevieve  30:24  

Just sounds like everybody's like, working together as a team. That's really lovely.

Hannah  30:29  

We try our best. We do have our moments. Like, everyone, well, you're people.

Genevieve  30:32  

You can be people.

Hannah  30:34  

Well, we have a lot of, we have a lot of like, how much time away from the kid, for the father, it's okay, you know, like, how much of a date, like I do kung fu. I practice kung fu with Ivo. And we usually would sleep together the day before, so we would go in the morning, but kung fu started like 10 o'clock in the morning, and the kid wakes up at seven. So it was not only the hours of kung fu. But we were also implicitly asking Mika to also take care of the kid from seven to 10, and then from 10 to, like, one or two, when the when the class ended, and there was a lot of hours, and there was this unaccounted for, kind of like unappreciated hours of effort from her. We had, we had this conversation? Of like, okay, but if you're going to basically ask you to take care of we have to actually ask you. It doesn't mean that it can't happen. It just means that it's something that needs to be explicit, because otherwise you're like, assuming that the other person will be there whilst also taking care of your relationship. Like, where does that all fit? You know?

Ishik  31:44  

I mean, I love that. I love the very explicit acknowledging labor, right? Like, I think so often in relationships. I mean, even a lot of, like, a lot of monogamous relationships, there's a lot of unacknowledged labor, be it child care, like housekeeping or emotional labor. And I think that that very deliberate calling attention to it, and saying, Hey, you're actually just assuming that I'm gonna handle this, and even just the act of saying, like acknowledging the labor and saying, Hey, is it? Are you willing to do it? And then it's like, yeah, I can do it. Thank you for asking me and then seeing that I'm doing this, right? Yeah?

Genevieve  32:25  

The difference of like, just saying, I see you, yeah, I see you, you know, I don't assume or ignore.

Hannah  32:33  

And sometimes that's like, there's no other change, needed sometimes, yeah, just say it, acknowledge it.

Ishik  32:38  

You know. So you mentioned being somebody who wants to be child free, and that had been something you wanted before this, and then, like, now you know you're the godmother of this child and and you're very involved. I would love to hear kind of about what that emotional or psychological journey was like. Like, was that a complicated thing, or was it just really simple? Like, oh, there's a kid. And I love this kid now. Like, what was, what was that like?

Hannah  33:07  

It was very complicated. I actually, like, doubted for a second if I did, if I actually wanted to be child free, like, for a half second. Like, the hormones of having a kid around, they're not kidding. Like you're 30, and then you have a kid in your arms. You're like, wait, what do I want this? But it was complex. It was even before the kid came, I had so much doubt, like, can I actually do this? Like, am I this kind of person? Because I was never like a kid kind of person to but what about if I fuck it up? What about if I fuck it up for them? What about if I have the kid, and he falls down the stairs. So it's, it's a lot, and then the kid was there. I knew, like, and I loved her, and I loved her from day one, the first time that I held her, I almost cried, like every kind of movie cliche that you want all there, I did, like, have a lot of because of personal history, like, I have a lot of fear of overstepping, and that was the biggest hurdle with the parents saying, like, Hey, you can have your own criteria and do things, and we trust you, and you can Tell us if you think we're fucking up, and we trust you. And it's like, initially I was very, very afraid of speaking up if I felt that something was wrong, and very afraid of when I was alone with the kid making decisions. You know, like, I have to, like, have, you have to make decisions when you're six hours along with a kid, it's like, can they do this or not? Can I tell them no? What's the like? What's the volume of say no. That's appropriate with a kid, for a kid this age, if they are, I don't know, putting their fingers in an outlet. You know? 

Ishik 34:57

You might want to say no to that? 

Hannah  34:59  

Yeah, of course. But it's like, if I say they have to be gentle about everything, or, kind of like, have a discharge no about things like, of course, treating the kid with respect, and being very like gentle, like, where is the line? Is it okay if I choose that they eat this and then they have a stomach ache, it's my fault, like, those kind of things. I was very, very in my head about it. Mika was wonderful about it. Is wonderful about it. But, yeah, it was a process. But I remember like when we were saying, like, are you going to be aunt? Are you going to be like, What will your like? The way that we refer to you like, she will pick her own way. I'm Nana, by the way, but she will pick her own way of calling you. But how do we refer when we are talking to, I don't know, monogamous family that doesn't know about polyamory, but doesn't understand what your place is. And I remember suddenly sending a voice note to Mika, and like, I'm the godmother of that kid. Like, if something happens to you and you give the kids to someone else. I'm going to fucking riot. So we had that talk. It  was like, okay, godmother it is of course.

Music

Ishik  36:19  

So at this point you've been through just so much with your polycule. I'm wondering, do you guys discuss, kind of, big picture, sort of long term plans? Do you have things in the works?

Hannah  36:32  

We are actually planning to build a house together, all five of us. We, and actually, are like we are buying land, not also the, not only the five of us, but also with my ex and his girlfriend. So we will have two houses in one, in one land, and share the space in a very hippy, anarchist, polyamorous commune. 

Genevieve  37:00  

You know, that's so many people's dreams. So, yeah, you're right. Yeah, you're living it.

Hannah  37:04  

Yeah, I'm living the dream.

Genevieve  37:07  

So two houses, seven people, you've all been in each other's lives for a long time. People do imagine, like, that's a that's a fantasy of, like, a perfect utopia. But I think practically, it can also come with just a lot of adjustments of living with multiple partners,  different relationships. Maybe you're in conflict with one, but you're feeling lovey dovey with another, like and it's right in front of each other. Have you all spent a lot of time together? Has there ever been tension with the fact that you have multiple partners seeing like with a front row seat to your relationship with the other one. 

Hannah  37:46  

Of course, if anyone ever says no, no, everything was perfect from the beginning, please don't believe them. They are either an Android or just lying to you. It, it doesn't happen as much anymore, like it's just been so long. But like when we started, there was a lot of it. I started dating Ivo. Ivan had his own jealousy about it, like, are you going to leave me for this guy? Even though he had been polyamorous for a long time, I knew that not how polyamory work works. You still have that. And then Mika started dating Ivan too and I was like, Oh no, it's just gonna, like, replace my place in his life. And initially, we have a lot of restrictions of what could happen, like, in front of each other, like, okay, you can make out, but up until to this point and you have to, like, and if I am in the room, you can, if I am in the house, maybe this and those kind of, like, fade away over time. Like, we all have different comfort levels. So we just kind of like work on the person who is the most uncomfortable. Like, that's our standard. But right now, we are very, kind of like open until I don't know it. It changes over time. Like, I can go, like, if I'm going for a rough patch with in a relationship with someone. Maybe I would ask my mentor not to tell me some things about them. You know that they'll spend like, another time. It's like, yeah, please give me the gossip. Like, oh, that's so hot. Tell me all about it. And sometimes it's like, Hey, I would rather not know these things. But I don't know. I don't remember the last time that I felt uncomfortable because of like a PDA, I kind of like love seeing them. We say that we are love positive. It's like any expression of love is it's beautiful, and I think that that's the way that we found that works best for us. 

Ishik  39:35  

It at least sounds like a big part of it has been time and things being stable consistently, but that also it didn't just happen passively. 

Hannah  39:47  

Right absolutely. In the beginning, I had a lot of issues with like feeling second place, but the thing that I that was the most work that I had to do was realizing that is not what the other person was. Was trying to do. It's like they were not trying to make me feel second place. They were not trying to make the other person first. They just weren't realizing how what they were doing was affecting me. So I had to speak up of what was affecting me without antagonizing the other person. Because when you antagonize someone, they get defensive, and that's not a productive conversation. So for me, a lot of the work was learning to assume good intentions from everyone around me, as long as you're not in an abusive relationship, of course, to just assume good intentions from everyone around me, and what I needed was to be able to communicate my needs and call out behavior without accusing the other person of, like intentionally fucking up, basically or intentionally trying to hurt me. 

Genevieve  40:49  

For people who are sort of unsure if there's good intent, is it the sign that they're listening like that they do it different next time is is that what sort of validates that for you?

Hannah  41:00  

Yes, Action speaks louder than words. A lot of the time, if someone is just trying to calm you down, and then the next time it happens again and again and again, without saying that, like, mistakes can happen more than one time. Like and like structural things can take a long time to deconstruct, and that's okay, but seeing the progress, even in the small things. To me, it was like, Okay, you have the intention for this or, like, repair attempts. We had to have a lot of conversations with my partners about what repair means to me, because I am a person that if you do something that hurts me, I need that repair. And sometimes they would feel like, oh, that repair is having the conversation. I'm like, no, no, the conversation is necessary, but repair sometimes is bringing me chocolates, and that's okay, and repair sometimes means plan a date.

Ishik  41:51  

Okay well, with the time that we have left, I wanted to ask about the role playing, the non sexy role playing. So you know you were talking about, you know, being in this, this role playing group with Lucero, your your friend, slash metamor.

Hannah  42:08  

Yeah, in the platonic relationship with.

Ishik  42:12  

The platonic relationship, metamour, yeah, that. So, do you feel like engaging with this RPG group is similar to navigating a polycule, especially because the polycule is the D&D group, or the RPG group.

Hannah  42:32  

There are parallels. You can have jealousy between like, not only the jealousy of like, oh, you're going to like this person, but this legacy, or like, Oh no, you're role playing more with this person, because you like more how they role play. You decided to make like have these characters have a relationship with like that. That's kind of all around but I think that the thing that stands out to me the most is the safety and consent part of it, like, understanding, like, what the other person needs and at what time, and being aware of triggers and being aware of boundaries and limits. I think that, for example, every time that I DM a new campaign, I like, go through a safety and consent checklist. I go through like, Okay, what? What does red mean to you. Like, what does stuff mean? Like, are you okay with this being discussed if it doesn't happen in front of you? And that's very parallel a few, are you okay with us talking about sex, even if it's not happening in front of you? Like, are you okay with seeing us makeup make out, or are you okay with us talking about making out? Are you okay? Like, what's your level of comfort with all of this, and I think that that's something that can be hard to navigate in both, but there's a lot of tools for both to be able to to make it a bit easier, and that's the biggest for me.

Ishik  43:54  

Have there ever been any issues that crept into the RPG group that came from existing kind of conflict within the larger molecule, or has that always been.

Hannah  44:07  

That has not happened yet. At least not yet. We haven't been playing for that long. So just like it's been eight months, give us a bit more time, we'll find some conflict. Don't you worry.

Hannah  44:20  

Oh, actually, wait, wait, wait, I'm lying. I'm just thinking about the current group. I'm sorry. I'm thinking about the current group. But initially my DM was my ex, the one that like my ex girlfriend from last year, because I think that was happening outside, and then happened in the in the RPG, and then in the TD RPG, you realize, oh, wait, this person is actually like this, and it goes out the defects of the person coming through with the characters. It's like, my ex was really, really punitive with things, and then, like, everything, every time that something happened in place, in play that she didn't like, like, it would like every NPC because she wasn't DM, every NPC would be really punitive about it. And it will be kind of like a hive mind simultaneously telling you that you're wrong.

Ishik  45:05  

I've constructed an entire universe of characters to tell you how bad you are.

Hannah 45:10

Exactly.

Music

Genevieve  45:15  

Thank you so much, Hannah, for everything that you shared today. Like I just think it's just going to be so helpful, and there's, like, a lot of practical advice and examples. So thank you so much. 

Hannah 45:24

Thank you.

Ishik  45:26  

The complexity of it, but also you bringing it to very, like, tangible stories, and then being willing to share some really beautiful personal things. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Hannah  45:36  

I hope I didn't talk everyone's ear off.

Ishik  45:40  

What you had to say was great. It was great. 

Genevieve  45:41  

Yeah, we need role models. That's the whole point of this. You know, we want, we want more role models. So talk away. 

Hannah  45:47  

You know, it's so weird to come to a point in which you can be seen as a role model, like even seven years in, you're like I’m baby poly.

Genevieve  45:56  

But I know, I think we can be both. We can be learning and messy and still, you know, have a lot to give.

Ishik  46:02  

No, I'm sorry that's bullshit. You are not baby poly anymore. I hate to break it to you, not at all, man, you have, you have two partners. Both share a partner with another partner. You're good. You're a godmother to the kid. You're not baby poly, yeah, not even close dude. 

Hannah  46:21  

Yeah, okay, you're breaking my heart, but I can accept it.

Genevieve  46:26  

But we'd also love to invite you, if you're working on any projects or anything that you'd like to share. Is, yeah, is there anything that you'd want to promote? Yeah,

Hannah  46:34  

I'm actually, like, just a guest in this, but I am very passionate about it. There's a stream called Inspired Distractions on Twitch, in which we stream a lot of tabletop role playing games, and sometimes games, sometimes just chill out and craft something with one of the cast members. I often can be found Fridays in the Indie Understudy stream, which in the ttrpgs that people don't talk about, and just kind of like bringing them to light, kind of related to this podcast, in the relationships, bringing them to light. But yes, I love it. I think it's a great project, and if anyone wants to come it's twitch.tv/inspireddistractions. I think that there was a hunter campaign going on. There's a D&D campaign going on that was making characters by attrition, just feeding characters against each other and having them die until the champions arrive. And those are the characters.

Ishik  47:39  

Yeah, blood bath, blood bath. 

Genevieve 47:42

Oh, he's gonna watch.

Ishik  47:44  

Yeah. Awesome. Please everyone, go check that out. Go check out inspired distractions on Twitch and or specifically find Hannah on indie understudy. And also, if you're looking for more polyamory content, Genevieve, as always, is on Tiktok and Instagram at chill polyamory. Also on YouTube, where she discusses non monogamy in film and TV. 

Genevieve  48:09  

You can support those projects and this podcast directly on Patreon, where you'll get early access to videos, private stories, live Q and A's and an option for one on one peer support. That's patreon.com/chillpolyamory.

Ishik  48:21  

And this has been I Could Never… For everyone listening, remember that just because you've never done something before doesn't mean that you can't do it. Bye, bye.