Genevieve  0:07  

Welcome to I Could Never, a show about non monogamy and the many ways it can look. I'm Genevieve from Chill Polyamory on Instagram, Tiktok and YouTube, and I'm joined, as always, by my co-host and partner, Ishik.

Ishik  0:18  

Yes, like a breath of fresh air. It's me, ishik, how's it going, but it is just us today. Just us. Normally, this would be me being Oh, but, but it's not just us. It's this guest. But no, it is just us today. How's it going today?

Genevieve  0:32  

Nice and cozy today. As we wrap up season two, we wanted to do another question and answer episode. So last week, we asked you to submit your questions, and I guess today we're gonna answer them. It's pretty self explanatory.

Ishik  0:48  

I think they, they, you know, it's a pretty common thing. I feel like they should shorten it. They can do like, Q and A, and that's really good.

Genevieve  0:53  

Yeah, I'm onto something. 

Ishik  0:56  

Hey, we're really good at this. Yeah, but yeah, before we can get into this new concept of a Q and A, we have to bask in beautiful sun rays as they strike our cheeks, a warm wind coming off of the sea breeze. 

Genevieve  1:17  

It’s Vibe or Vent time. For anyone listening for the first time, we always like to start our episodes with an icebreaker called vibe or vent, where we each take a beat to talk about something that we're vibing about and feeling good about this week, or something we need to vent about and get off our chest. Ishik, would you like to start?

Ishik  1:34  

I’m gonna start today. Okay, yeah, so I'm vibing today. I'm vibing today, and perhaps this would not align with our listeners, who I kind of hope are a little sad that we're not going to be here for a bit. But I'm vibing about this being the end of season two. So I'm burnt out. You're super burnt out. It's been a really crazy past few weeks. Into the past month specifically. I mean, we had to really bust our ass for the the YouTube video, the cartoons YouTube video, which, by the way, if listeners, if you haven't checked out the most recent YouTube video, 25 years of polyamory in cartoons. I highly recommend it. People seem to really like it. It's been pretty popular, and we had to really work hard for it. 

Genevieve  2:19  

Basically made a short movie. It's like, an hour and 10 minutes, all about polyamory and cartoons and, like.

Ishik  2:25  

Yeah, fun watch. It was a very fun watch. It was really but it was, yeah, it was a lot, but it was a lot. And there was, like, so many issues too. Like, generally, his monitor just broke randomly one morning. And, like, we got a random YouTube thing, I didn't even know you could get where it just said they won't show it to anyone, yeah, because of copyright. So, yeah, anyways, is a little all to say it's been a long few weeks, long month and and I'm really, really looking forward to a little bit less on the plate anyways. But I am vibing about getting a little bit of a break. I will pass it to you. Genevieve, what's what's going on? Vibing or venting?

Genevieve  3:01  

Yeah, yeah, no, I think in general, on a personal note, I share your vibe, something that I would vent about, though, something that is disturbing and frustrating and not surprising to me. Eurovision has been happening, and it is including Israel, and it is banning Palestinian flags, and they're taking this stance of Eurovision is not political, yeah, it's like a new quote, unquote, new quote, unquote, neutral, while banning and fining any artists who wear a keffiyeh, or finding any artists who like are just showing the colors of Palestine, not even any messaging with it, but including and celebrating Israel. And it's just, it's heavy to me, and it's dark because countries will do this of, you know, art washing, where they want the public image to be lightened through, you know, popular entertainment. And so, you know, countries do it with the Olympics. Countries do it with Eurovision, you know, and trying to show like we're popular, we're not, you know, don't think about anything else when you when you think about us in the news. It's this singer, it's this contest, it's this celebration, you know, and just completely contrast with the ongoing genocide. So, you know, not to lead with genocide for our conversation, but it's on my mind. It's on my mind. It pissed me off, and I there's a powerless feeling to it, I guess, as well.

Ishik  4:41  

I mean, the core of the premise of Vibe or Vent and the show as a whole is the good and the bad, and I think especially just not to wrap it up in too much of a neat little bow. But like, you know, we're going to be getting into questions and answers in a second, right? And oftentimes. The questions are coming from a place of struggle and strife, right? I'm struggling. How can, how can I move forward? How can I help with these things? Or, like, can you help with this? And like, yeah, that's part of the show's purpose.

Genevieve  5:12  

Yeah, I think well roundedness is important in like, an anthology and storytelling, you know? So sharing the lightness and sharing the heaviness all at the same time. I agree. So that might be the mixed tone of today's episode, because we haven't seen these questions yet. Sometimes questions are simple and cute, sometimes questions come from a very pained place, but we're happy to welcome all of them and support you to the best of our ability, I'm polyamorous for 13 years. You about the same, yeah, least as long. Yeah, 13 or 14 years. So you know, we'll share from our experience and take what resonates and leave the rest.

Ishik  5:54  

So with that, let's get into it. First question, my question has to do with coming out as non monogamous to friends, family and strangers. It feels like telling people I am non monogamous has to be a huge conversation. My partner and I have had a super healthy non monogamous relationship for about a year now. We've been together for three. He's my nesting partner, and I have a comet partner I see every three months. Some additional context. Our entire friend group gossiped about how I would break up with my nesting partner after we opened our relationship. They also tell me that I received too many gifts from my comic partner, and that it is odd that he, quote, spoils me. Constant unsupportive comments like this make me want to hide this part of me, even though I feel that I have so much love in my life, why wouldn't I want to share my experiences? I've also been told that non monogamy is an unprofessional topic to bring up. What is your opinion on that? I live in LA, I would imagine that this wouldn't be an issue. Why can my coworker talk about his wedding over beers, but I can't talk about my comment partner visiting for the weekend? How do I make conversations about my partners and relationship dynamics lighter and healthier with friends that I have that's great. This is an awesome question. Thank you so much for sending this in.

Genevieve  7:10  

Yeah, why are your friends saying those things about you? What the fuck you know? That's all I could think about when you're saying that the active discouragement, the gossiping behind your back, the predicting your failure, maybe even wanting it to fail like they don't sound like safe people to really like, bask in your happiness on this topic around and that sucks, because who you bring close is a big part of your life. 

Ishik  7:40  

So I mean, I think that what I'll say about it is actually it sounds like what's probably happening now, again, this is something I say all the time with these question and answer bits, is we are getting a very limited window into into people's lives, into their circumstances. And so if, for instance, you are the author of this question, and you don't relate to what I'm saying, or it sounds like I'm reading into too into things too much, please forgive me. That's not my intention. I have to just go off of what we've got right. But what I'll say is this, I'm hearing a premise of how to cater these conversations to people who are not supporting it and supporting you in a non confrontational way, and frankly, and I think speaking to what Genevieve was saying, there needs to be a bit more confrontation on the way you're being received, right? So if your friends are being kind of shitty, I'm not going to sit here and say that they're not your friends. I would say that, as it currently stands, they don't seem like very supportive people that you can trust with your personal details about your relationship, but they might be your friends, and you know people you want to share time and spend, spend time with and share activities with, in general, and that they are just shitty about this, which means that there might need to be some confrontation about how they've been talking to you and how they've been treating your relationship relationships, right? And so the same kind of goes with work. It is not, to my knowledge, in where you're at to be it is not illegal to be non monogamous. It is not legal to be fired on the premise of that, or to be discriminated.

Genevieve  9:18  

That's not true. Some people get fired. I think it's company by company. It's not a protected class. So when it comes to the professional part of it, I think it really depends on your job and sort of weighing the risk reward of public opinion there like harming your professional career. Because even though I agree with you that, like we should be able to talk about the people we're close to. Why is monogamy professional, and this isn't I am not as optimistic that people saying that would change their minds or would be sympathetic, so then I lean a little bit more self protective. But coming back to your interpersonal friends, you know, are there some. That you feel really close to, that you feel okay to be vulnerable with, because sometimes, if a person genuinely means well, you know, if you get that one or two of them actually are worried about you, and it's coming out as a joke of the gifts that you're getting, but maybe they're worried about you. If that's the intent that you're picking up on, then I usually, like, would pull one or two people to the side and be vulnerable and, you know, open up with how hurtful what they're saying is. Or would you be willing to say this to me instead, or ask me and be curious instead of deciding you know what's happening. But if there are people, like, if there's gossip and such that they're closed off. They're less okay to be vulnerable around that. That might even be ammunition for more gossip, right? You can judge that based off of what you know about them, but then, like ishik is saying, I do get firmer. I'm gonna talk to you about everything except my love life. You've not made it okay to talk about my love life, right? And putting it back on them that they're the reason you, you're not opening up about how your weekend was because you they've been shitty, and like reflecting back to them that if they want a friendship with you, that they need to be like coming with friendly, curious, supportive energy, otherwise you might shut off that part of yourself from the friendship.

Ishik  11:22  

Say that's not okay. Don't speak to me that way, you know. And I think, you know, kind of rereading the question a bit. One of the things that was highlighted first was it, it, it feels like telling people I am non monogamous has to be a huge conversation. And I think that is a personal barrier, right? It doesn't have to be, right? You can just say, Oh yeah, you know my comment partner. And if somebody wants to ask, they can, if they don't, they don't.

Genevieve  11:51  

Yeah, it's heavy, if you kind of treat it as something heavy. Sometimes it might feel called for to have a heavy conversation if you feel really hurt by something. I also knew a girl who, like, carried around a little water bottle, and she said, I'm gonna spritz you every time you say something shitty to me. And she, like, spritzed her friends. And it was like a funny thing that still pushed back. That's what I mean, finding your own way of communicating, not okay to do that, right? And it doesn't always have to be heavy. But that was clear. I'm training you, my friend, shut the fuck up, or you're gonna get a spritz of water. I like that a lot. Yeah. So the last thing I'll say on it is if I ever hit a brick wall with somebody and they just are adamant and shutting down, and they their ears are closed, then I just let them misunderstand me, you know, and that's a really, really hard thing to start to do, but it is a choice to like, deliberately not be curious, deliberately not understand you. And if someone's committed to not understanding you, then that's going to be a waste of your energy, a waste of your time. So curiosity, I see as a big green flag, and I treat those people with a lot more gentleness and like Grace for their ignorance, if they're willing to ask questions and change, but people who are just committed to wanting you to fail for whatever reason, whatever they're projecting onto you, whatever they have their own feelings about it, it might not even be about you, but if they are stuck in that place, then you just leave them there. You're not going to be able to lift them up out of that if they don't want to. So then, then you decide how close or how far you want to be to that person and what kinds of things you would want to talk to them about if anything continues. Alrighty. Next question. This one's a short one. It just says, I'm a child of alcoholics. Am I too fucked up for poly?

Ishik  13:53  

Oh no, no, absolutely not. And I'm gonna take the lead on this one, yeah, sure, as a child of two addict alcoholics and an addict alcoholic myself sober for like, a dozen years. No, you're not too fucked up for polyamory, if you hear me and the stuff I say and you're like, oh, this district guy seems like he's got some good stuff to say. Guess what? I'm incredibly fucked up, right? Like, I had to get sober at the age of, like, 21 right? Like, that's how quick and bad it got. Yeah? And I think Genevieve probably say the same about some of hers. 

Genevieve  14:27  

Yeah, no. I mean, I have had a therapist be surprised at how much trauma I have.

Ishik  14:35  

Sorry. It's just like, she's like a badge of pride, like, I'm the most fucked up. 

Genevieve  14:39  

She didn't say that, but she was like, oh my god, it's uncommon that I, you know, talk to someone with this much trauma. And I was like, but you're a therapist. All that to say is, like, I brought my trauma to monogamy too when I was attempting it. So it's sort of like what we carry with us. And it'll come out in any kind of relationship. Anytime we're bringing someone close or expanding our family, you know, if we bring people close enough to consider them family, then any family issues are gonna come up, you know. And I do think that in polyamory, when you have more people in the mix, it can be more frequent triggers that you cannot ignore. You know you're gonna have to confront it if you're gonna have a good time. 

Ishik  15:28  

And what I'll say to that, like speaking to the idea of, like, unstable alcoholic parents, right? Like my like how I coped with that, or one of the many ways I coped with that, before I started doing a lot more work on it was that I often, you know, related and brought close people who were unstable and that wanted me to help fix them, and I wanted to fix them right and and learning and doing the work around that, and recognizing that that is Not the foundation of a good relationship that was more important, and that was work that I had to do about monogamous relationships. 

Genevieve  16:07  

There were partners that my trauma kept coming up again and again and again because they kept breaking agreements and cheating on me and like, you know, and it kept the cycle going of I'm with people I am bringing close, people that are volatile, people that are unpredictable or neglectful, just like my family of origin, right? So like I do, I do stand by we heal in relationship. You can't go alone into a corner and heal and then emerge ready to be in relationships like we heal together. You know, that was a changing point for me. Once I really only was with people that I was like, Yeah, I trust them. Or, you know, if we're human and we accidentally hurt each other, like we are both committed to rebuilding trust, right? Like it doesn't have to be, you know, you're allowed to be flawed, but yeah, trauma, babies are welcome. 

Ishik  17:06  

I like the question, and I and I like you, yeah? It made me laugh. Definitely made Yeah, you're not alone. Oh, my God, you're not alone. Yeah. Okay, so next question, how do I let go of the guilt I feel for wanting to date again when my partner doesn't for context, we've been non monogamous from the start of the relationship and share the same values. I had a serious partner when we first got together, whom I have since broken up with, and he dated around for a little while. I'm assuming he, in this case, is your current partner, but all the but ultimately decided that he felt saturated at one he still feels this way, but I am being pulled to date again. How do I get over the monogamy hangover that I'm doing something quote unquote wrong by dating outside of this relationship? I feel it even though he has told me he is supportive and wants me to explore, I still can't help but feel like I'm doing something wrong here, because I'm the only one in my current relationship, who wants to date? Help? Please. Yeah, so I will say just right out the gate, the first thing that jumps out to me is trusting what our partners say. Right? If he is saying that he is supportive and he wants you to explore, I believe in taking leaps of faith and trusting our partners, if they've only ever shown us that they should be trusted, right? I don't have that as a blanket statement for people who do shady bullshit, but if we've only ever had, you know, good vibes from somebody, then listen to him. He came into this relationship with you dating somebody else, you're not doing something wrong.

Genevieve  18:43  

A lot of times, guilt comes from like this internalized voice of what people will think. And I don't know if that's explicit in your mind, but whenever someone gets hung up on optics, I'm dating someone and he's not, you know, therefore I'm bad, that makes me think that some part of you is on the outside looking in at what it looks like, and not living in the fact that you're not causing harm, right? You are literally not hurting anyone. And is there worry of judgment, or are you judging from the outside looking in? And can that be explored? Whose voice is that? Where does that come from? You know, if you are hearing like a specific person's voice or picturing certain people's judgment, that's good information, you know, and I have felt that in a similar way as like guilt around sex. I wasn't getting hurt, nobody else was getting hurt, and I would be like, I'm a bad person, right? And so it was a similar process of work, of why, who told me, says, who you know, like, and realizing that I wanted to let go of a lot of the values that were at the core of that self judgment. I don't know if that'll be helpful for you. It definitely has been helpful for me in terms of, like just stopping that thought when it happens, and pushing back on it, to to not run with it, to not take it as truth.

Ishik  20:11  

Okay, so here is a little quick bite, a little quibi, how to deal with the fact that my partner dates annoying people that everyone dislikes.

Genevieve  20:25  

Oh no, is that the whole question? 

Ishik  20:28  

Question, literally, how to deal with the fact that my partner dates annoying people that everyone dislikes? Oh, Jesus, goodness, everyone.

Genevieve  20:39  

I don't know like you said they're annoying, so it doesn't sound like they're abusive, right? You know, like, so if they're annoying and you just don't want to be around them, you don't got to be around them, right? Like, or if you're feeling pressured to be around them or it's unavoidable, then is there a way to at least be civil? I think that that's fine. You know, we don't all got to be best friends,

Ishik  21:00  

I would say that your relationship with your partner is your relationship with your partner and barring what their behavior does with somebody else, revealing something about them that you don't like about dating them, you kind of don't have any power over any of the rest of it. Right? You can choose how much involvement you want to have with any of the person, this person that you perceive, that everyone that is annoying and everyone dislikes, but that's about it, right? We can't control our partners. We can't control anyone else. We can control ourselves.

Genevieve  21:35  

And I'll be honest, whenever I am consistently annoyed by a type of person. I do also want to ask why I'm annoyed. Now, you mentioned everyone gets annoyed, so maybe there is like something there, I don't know. Are you sure that quote, everyone dislikes them, or is it just that you don't like them, right? And and are you then not liking them and going to your friends and saying, yeah, it doesn't, don't they suck? And they're like, Yeah, you're my friend there. Sure they suck, right? Are you building a case against them? Are you building a case against them? If not, you know, then disregard this part. If that's not what's happening. But I'll say, if there's any agitation, whenever I'm in a room with someone and I'm agitated, there is info there for me? Why am I agitated? Because I've been in plenty of rooms with people who I think have objectively annoying traits, and had peace in my body about it. You know, been like, Oh, my God, is pretty annoying. I probably won't hang out with them, but I've not been agitated. So if you're agitated, why? You know, and at the very least, can you explore that so you get some peace for yourself, so that you're not wanting your partner to change, or you're not in a lot of distress, like, can that be explored? Because that is the part also that you have power over, is, you know, how can I explore some acceptance and get some peace over this? And what is it in me that is agitated? That is reacting?

Ishik  23:02  

Yeah, best of luck. 

Genevieve  23:06  

Yeah, I do feel for you. You know it's it's tricky, because we pick our people, we don't pick their people. Yeah. Okay. Next question, my partner says he's solo, poly, but I am his anchor partner. He doesn't tell me when he's going on dates, or if he is intimate with someone. I hardly know the names of people he's been dating, or how many people is that normal, solo, poly? No, no, I'm so sorry, baby. He's being shady. Yeah, that's that's shady. Yeah.

Ishik  23:39  

Obviously these terms can mean different things to different people, to an extent, but any use of solo polyamory to denote hiding and like kind of lying and obscuring things when that's not what you want or have agreed upon is a misuse of the term, Right? So that's just blanket, easy answer to that. No, it's not.

Genevieve  24:03  

Yeah, solo polyamory in general, you know, like you said, it can mean slightly different things to different people, but broadly speaking, it is when people don't want an interdependent, you know, life building with someone, they don't want to move in, they don't want to have a co parent, or they don't want to share finances, things like that, you know. And solo polyamory agreements can include, I don't want to, you know, have to tell you every time I'm going out on a new date. You know that that can be agreed upon. However, if that's not something you want, one you don't have to agree to something that you don't want. And it could just be a difference in like, how you both want to be polyamorous, but I'm hearing evasive I'm hearing evasiveness now he says you're his anchor partner. What does that mean?

Ishik  24:52  

I will say that my personal perception is that. And maybe you disagree with me on this. I think that anchor partner. Or being tied to solo polyamory, that these are kind of incongruous. Yeah, they kind of don't totally go together like I could see an argument for it. I'd be more than happy to speak to somebody who's solo polyamorous and has an anchor partner, but at the same time, I kind of see anchor partner as somebody who you are specifically kind of tied to, bound to, in a way, the premise of an anchor is somebody who keeps you still in one spot, and solo polyamory being much more focused on, kind of not being tied to people like that and that you're building your life based on your own solo desires and needs. So that already is a little Yeah, it's confusing. A little confusing. If this is a term that you're both agreeing to on both sides. Beyond that, I would say what I'm hearing from the question is that these elements of not knowing about partners and the names and the numbers and all that stuff that that's distressing to you, right? And so I think beyond the labels of solo, polyamory, or anchor partners, or any of this stuff. If it's distressing to you, that's not good, right? And I think that the labels themselves are meant to be a tool to help in explanation and for communication. And if that's not serving you, then don't focus on the labels. Focus on the fact that you are distressed.

Genevieve  26:20  

Yeah, I'll say I have a couple of comets that are dear friends that I talk to when I talk to them, you know. And I'm not up to date on who they're close to, who they're sleeping with, you know, and if I'm sexually active with them, then I get up to date once we reconnect, at the very least, for sexual health reasons to understand, like the landscape, you know, so that on its own, can exist. If it's not distressing. It doesn't distress me to be out of the loop because we are living such separate lives most of the time. However, if it is affecting your relationship with them, if you don't know where they are, when they'll come back, or if they're building a life with someone, and you'll be surprised by that, you know, in six months. So we're moving in together, right? Like, if there is like a person that you are close to with completely walled off parts of their life to you, then maybe being anchor partners isn't gonna be sustainable, right?

Ishik  27:22  

I’m hearing a mismatch, maybe, between desired communication and integration with each other, right? One person saying I don't want to tell you things, I don't want to share things, and I don't want to be bound by that kind of disclosure or restrictions on my sexual or romantic activities, right? That is somebody who's really seeking independence, right? And, and then on the flip side is somebody who's maybe wanting more dependence and integration. And, yeah, interdependence. And that's the fund, the actual desire to share or not share, or be dependent, not be dependent. You know, be integrated. Or not be integrated, these things are not inherently wrong. Yeah, it's the mismatch. That's the cross. 

Genevieve  28:07  

So, yeah, it's reminding me of someone that I dated five years ago that I was starting to see regularly and feel like a bit more of like I was gonna call them a partner after some months, and still there was this unwillingness to even just, like, talk about their day, like, Oh, you're going out later. And there would be like, yep, yep. And I was like, Are you going on a date? Are you gonna have fun? Like, I was just trying to know this person, and I hit brick walls over and over again, of like, you're not allowed into that part of my life. And okay, well, then I need to not need that from you, you know. So I need to see you less. I need to maybe not sleep over, because if I'm feeling these walls, then like, maybe I hook up with you. But sleeping over, it feels like a little bit more cozy and intimate and like partnering to me, you know, getting into the nitty gritty of like, How do I stop wanting this to you, how far away do I have to be? And maybe the answer is completely far away. I don't know, you know, situation, I did wind up breaking up with that person for similar reasons. But yeah, I was like, Oh, this type of role will not work for me. I will be anxious. I will be, you know, feeling bad in the relationship. So I need to not try to put you in that role. So if there's unwillingness to change on this, you know, then you can decide, is this somebody I want in this role? Is this going to work for me? But I really, really dislike when people will take a label and use that as a conversation Ender to justify whatever their behavior is. That upset you? Well, I'm solo, poly. You can't ask that. Yeah, you.

Next question, have you ever had particularly good or bad or just plain odd responses from a therapist about polyamory? Oh, baby, some therapists don't know what they're talking about. I'm assuming the person who asked it also has a story, which I am like wanting to hear. What did they say to you?

Ishik  30:20  

Insane. I mean, because you've heard some of the I've heard some stories. What's the worst one?

Genevieve  30:24  

The worst one? I heard a story of a person who told their therapist that they wanted to open their marriage, and then the therapist proceeded to talk for several minutes about when they went to an orgy, when the therapist went to an orgy, and the stunned silence and not really knowing what to say about that.

Ishik  30:55  

Yeah, what I'm imagining that happened in that moment is that the therapist was uncomfortable and trying to relate in, trying to relate in, and doing the best they could. And they probably had some clinical training that that told them that you like, you know, can try to relate into this, this experience to better help their their patient, their client, whatever. And so the only thing that they could go to, because they had limited understanding about what the person was talking about with non monogamy. Was like, oh, yeah, I've been to an orgy too. Let me tell you about it. And like, it's like, their brain like, shut off in that moment about how uncomfortable and unacceptable that is to do and not inappropriate. Inappropriate, yeah, how inappropriate it is in that moment, because they were just like, well, I need to relate in. So it's like, almost like a robotic I'm doing robot arms, by the way. It's like a little robotic for mental response where they're like, Oh, well, I will relate in. What should I do? What do I have in my memory banks? I went to an orgy once, yes, and then, and then I saw a man put to his penis another man's mouth. And it was very interesting. 

Genevieve 31:59  

Why do they have a transatlantic, 1930s accent?

Ishik  32:04  

Because I imagine this motherfucker is old, right? Like,

Genevieve  32:07  

I don't know. I don't know. They only went to them one time and never went back. So, yeah, no shit, yeah. Therapists are people.

Ishik  32:15  

Yeah. I mean, I think just to be super, super clear, right, just to hammer home, we support therapy, and for people who have the resources and capacity and capability to do it, I highly, highly recommend it, and we have to find therapists that match our needs and match our like life, right? And I'm not by any means encouraging you to shop around for somebody who's going to tell you that everything you're doing is great and you don't need to change. Great and you don't need to change anything, right? That's not what I'm saying, either. And if somebody fundamentally doesn't understand or pathologizes non monogamy, then they're not a good therapist to go to if you're non monogamous, right? Like, even a good therapist can be not the right therapist for you if they fundamentally do not understand or agree with non monogamy. So yes, and and that sucks, but it's also reality, and so we have to find people who are aware understanding about non monogamy and treat it with respect. Right? You wouldn't go to a homophobic therapist if you're gay, you don't go to a polyphobic therapist. I'm making that term up. If you're polyamorous or.

Genevieve  33:27  

Yeah, like, and sometimes it's supplemental, like, people will go to a therapist for all of their trauma needs, and then we'll speak to somebody about polyamory to, like, supplement it, you know. So I'm not saying it's like an all or nothing thing on that.

Ishik  33:40  

I will plug it because she's not. Genevieve is a really great polyamorous coach, peer support person. So you're including this. 

Genevieve  33:48  

I don't want to include a plug in including it. I'm forcing you to, okay, we're including all of this, I guess. Yes, okay, okay, there's absolutely like other ways to have that need met outside of a therapeutic setting, too. Anyway. 

Ishik  34:06  

So yeah, there are many good therapists, and there are many bad if you have a bad time, keep looking. 

Genevieve  34:11  

Yeah. Next question. It's been several years in the making, but my wife and I are now keen to enter the world of polyamory. We've had all the discussions done, all the reading and our own relationship has never been better. We're really happy. I love that. For you, it continues. What we're now struggling with is to actually find other partners. We're UK based, and I've tried a few dating apps, but with limited success offline. We both do have people we're interested in, but are struggling with how to bring up the subject of non monogamy without seeming too pushy or forward. So any advice would be much appreciated. Yeah, I think it can vary in terms of where you're based. People who are in, you know, more rural or small towns, you know, sometimes they will expand their search rate. Obvious, you know, in dating apps. But you did mention that dating apps have been not the best for you, in which case I often think about like, where do polyamorous people go? You know, there most major cities do have a polyamorous meetup of some kind that you can Google if you live near or in a major city and who you meet, there might not be people you want to like, you know, fall in love with, and they also usually have people. So if there's anybody who's cool, they're building up more of a community, you know, and at least not feeling as alone or isolated, you know, having more people around you that you can be out and open with, yeah.

Ishik  35:41  

If I can jump in on kind of unrelated element of this for a second, sure this sentence where you say offline, we both have people we're interested in, but are struggling with how to bring up the subject of non monogamy without seeming pushy or too forward. What I'm hearing is some anxiety and some fear about telling somebody you like them, right, and being worried that they won't like you back in the same way, that's all that really is. Don't let the non monogamy angle be the thing that keeps you from telling somebody you'll like them if there isn't a professional concern, if your livelihood isn't at stake and your life wouldn't be up like turned upside down by your crush being rejected. I think it's as simple as, hi, hey, I wanted to let you know I'm interested in you. Would you be interested in going out on a date? Right? And then if they're like, wait, but aren't you married? And be like, yeah, that's in the bounds we are deciding to open up our relationship. You can explain that however you need to. And I'll just say I don't think that's remotely pushy or not at all. That is regular dating stuff, right? Clear. It's clear. It's communication, right? Like all these books that you said you read, I'm sure they all say how valuable and important communication is. This is the bedrock of that, right, being explicit, being direct about what you want to do, and then assessing that from them too. 

Genevieve  36:58  

Yeah, I don't think that transparency is like a sales pitch, you know, at all, so I wouldn't get too hung up on that. I think in general, finding people you want to bring really close to you is hard period. Like monogamous people struggle with this too that, yeah, but in non monogamy, it does, ironically, narrow the dating pool a bit of people who are interested in that kind of dynamic. If these people that you're interested in, if that's not panning out, or if neither of them, you know, want to be in a non monogamous situation, then where do non monogamous people go? You know, where might they already be gathering. And can you put your feet there and see who you see? 

Ishik  37:45  

Maybe you want to date them. Maybe you don't, but they might know people you might want to date.

Genevieve  37:49  

Yeah, good luck.

Ishik  37:51  

So I'm experiencing a kind of anxiety with one of my partners that I don't with my others. I feel a lot of resentment towards them because they hardly have any time for me, not just that, I'm the one always asking them about scheduling dates or even saying the first quote I miss you in a conversation, many of my texts go unanswered, which I don't even notice with the other partners, but bothers me so much when they straight up go silent in the middle of important conversations or text, what might I be doing wrong? It's affecting me a lot. I find myself keeping score and harboring resentment. I'll be speaking to them in person about this soon. So wish me luck.

Genevieve  38:30  

I mean, my first question is, do you both want the same thing? You know, that's that's something that if, even if you've discussed it before, can you get renewed clarity on that? Because yeah, it sounds like you're operating, like, at different paces. It sounds like you're left hungry for a connection, that you're like, doing bids for connection and reaching out and stuff, and it's not being reciprocated. So anytime something's not being reciprocated, I like to just get the lay of the land, like, what? Let's be real with each other. What do we want to the second part of your question about is it normal for like, only one partner to set off these feelings and not others? I yeah, I think everybody kind of experiences that like because we connect with people in different ways. We want different things from different people. So if with your other partners, you're feeling like balanced, you're reciprocal, you want the same things, then yeah, there would be some peace around it, even if they technically do some of the same behaviors. If it aligns with like, if you're good with that, then it won't be stressful. It sounds like, with this person, you want more or different, and they're not able to give it, so it's going to be stressful, you know? I think that's pretty common.

Ishik  39:46  

Yeah. I mean, I think that honestly, kind of covers it for me. I hate to say that, but, like, I don't really define relationships by some title or label. I define them by what we do, and so I think shaping the relationship. Around what you both want to do with each other is of great importance, right? And if there is a massive misalignment between what you both want to do with each other, then that's a misalignment in the relationship, and figuring out how to align it again is extremely important. So, yeah,

Genevieve  40:19  

you know. And in the case that like, so sometimes people are really bad at saying what they want. So you could even ask a direct question, and maybe you're not getting a direct answer. And that's also adding to the angst, you know, I if that's not your situation, it's okay. I just see it play out like that a lot of times. Sometimes the other partner will be like, no, no, I do want this. Or they'll even be, like, optimistic about what they can promise. Like, yeah, yeah, let's definitely, let's have more time together. Or I don't want to lose you, and so they agree to something they can't do or don't want to do because they're afraid of losing you in some capacity. So like, all that to say is sometimes people won't be able to give you a straight answer. So then I look at what they do. Like, okay, so you're saying you want this, and I haven't heard from you, you break off the conversation in Ghost mid chat. Like, that is what actually the relationship is doing. So if you're feeling stress at like, any like, words aren't matching actions, then lean on the actions. Like, okay, you can tell me pretty words all you want. You can even, like, be optimistic and miscalculate to what you're able to offer. I'm seeing what you're able to offer because that's what you're offering it. So, you know, is it possible to change it? If not, then all right, I have a decision to make of like, do like, am I going to stick around in this role in this way with what you're offering? You? Know? Okay, next question, my boyfriend and I have been talking about opening up our relationship and exploring the world of bringing a third for the last three years, which is as long as we've been together and have extremely open communication already. So we both feel pretty confident and excited going into this. What would be the best advice besides communication that you guys have to offer as we enter our journey of finding a girlfriend?

Genevieve  42:12  

Okay, hey, thank you for the kind words you also included, you know, a lot of gratitude for the podcast. And so I hear you're coming in good faith. You know it sounds like this is all quite new, even though you've been thinking about it for a while. What I say often to people who want a triad, especially a triad as their first exploration of non monogamy, is to imagine a few things. Imagine that your partner starts connecting with or falling in love with this person before you do. You know that they seem to have a stronger connection, more fireworks than you do with them. Does that bother you? Imagine that you don't feel like being sexual, but the two of them do so they want to go into the other room and be sexual, and you see that or hear that, and you're not part of it. Does that bother you? You know, there are times that not all three of you are together, right? There are times that you'll be in a conflict with one person and not with the other, like it's basically being real about the fact that a triad is four relationships, three duos and the trio, and I've seen it get really upsetting for people, because they don't want to date separately. They want to date together as a unit, but you are dating separately even if you get a triad. The difference with a triad is you have a front row seat to your partner dating separately too. 

Ishik  43:43  

And I think kind of speaking to that idea of some of those potential concerns, of like, if they're connecting more than you're connecting, right? Because of how rare it can be to find somebody you really, truly connect with in a deep way, but then simultaneously, that person has to also perfectly click with your partner, right? That's already like, that's an insanely rare thing to find just out the gate, without any build up to that kind of a dynamic, right? So in addition to that rarity, let's say you do start trying to go down this path out of a feeling of security. You want to be together in this journey. You start meeting somebody, and they, let's say, they click with that person, and you don't, right, and now the rules that you had set up, the agreements you had made, were that you were going to date together. And now they've already connected really hard. They're kind of falling for instantly this person, and you maybe even don't like them, but your partner really likes them, and they like your partner, and now, because of your previous agreements, now this budding new potential love is getting broken up. They're getting hurt. Your partner's getting hurt. Maybe they resent you for making you break up with make you know. Quote, making you break up with this new person that they're connected to. It gets like talking about this. It gets messy. It gets messy, right? People trying to protect the safety and security of their own relationship, so they date together often will will more often cause strife in that relationship, trying to date together, then they will maintain security. Yeah, so that's, I think the biggest thing is not just for the sake of the people who, frankly, are more often harmed the the so called unicorns are the ones who are most often harmed or abused or discarded in these situations. So but if you can't think about them, think about yourself. This is more risky for your relationship with your current partner than it is safe. That's that's what I would say is, is maybe don't try to date together. To find a girlfriend for the two of you. Maybe date separately and find somebody for yourself and them for them.

Genevieve  46:07  

I'm assuming you're going into this with good faith. It sounds like you're doing a lot of work, and you want to be really intentional. I love the fact that you feel solid in your duo ship. That is also an early question I ask people is, how are the two of you doing? Because if there's any kind of problem, it's going to get way worse, like inviting more people into it, you know. But I agree with the date separately thing, because triads can form plenty of people have them. Usually. How I've seen that happen is people develop their own one on one relationships and organically over months or years. You know, if that person spends enough time and like light falls for your other partner too, that can happen in a really lovely, organic way. But it cannot be forced. It only causes pain and strife when you're just like, trying to force a certain shape on a relationship.

Ishik  47:03  

So just, yeah, be mindful about how you move forward. And, yeah, take care of yourselves and think about the people you're dating as well. Okay, so last question, this is a bit of a long one, by the person's by the author's own allowance. This has been shortened a little bit, but I did want to cover it. I have been with my wife for about nine years and married for six. We started our relationship under strange circumstances. We were essentially two add ons to a married couple. She dated one spouse while I dated the other. We lived as one quad in one house for nearly two years. She introduced the married couple to her family, which did not go well, and she regretted doing so after the fact, while I was quite proud of our quad, it was a source of shame for her, as it made her feel uncomfortable and weird. As time went on, she realized that it wasn't working for her when she broke off from the quad, I broke off too and pursued her when I realized my feelings for her were the strongest. After all, we have since been monogamous, and she has not expressed an interest to change this. I have wanted to continue with polyamory, but it's been a non starter of a conversation topic. She tells me she's so happy with what she has now, and our previous experience with non monogamy left a bitter taste in her mouth. I feel torn by both a deep loyalty to protect her and a deep knowledge that I simply don't feel wired from monogamy anymore. I keep flirting and falling in love with coworkers and friends, and it's led to a pattern of me awkwardly wrecking those friendships and hurting my wife when I come clean about them. I thankfully haven't cheated aside from flirting, but I am shocked to find that it has started to tempt me, which adds anxiety to both of us. When I'm honest about that too, I long to go on dates without shame, but I refuse to do so without her consent. It feels like I'm gambling the most important thing I have on a hunch that will be worth it on the other side. Do you have any tips for reducing the trauma of the inevitable and more insistent? Quote, big Convo about opening the marriage. Is there any way I can be more certain that it will be worth it? Are there any increments or half measures, or am I still just at the cliff's edge preparing to jump? That's really tough, and I will say that I wanted to include this because this is a really, you know, hard, complicated situation, and I really, really feel for you. So that's a little heartbreaking to hear, just as to start. So thank you for sharing. 

Genevieve  49:26  

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it sounds like, you know it's crossing your mind about cheating, and you don't want it to you know that you've been compelled to flirt and you've fallen for people, even though you've not, you know acted upon anything that tells me that this is unsustainable. So when you say that talking about it is a non starter, my worry is that it would then like a conversation Ender about something unsustainable could, in and of itself, hurt. Hurt the relationship, you know, so is there an ability to have some softening around the talk of it? Can the talk not be shut down? Can Can the talk be explored? Of what is scary? Why is it scary? You don't want history to repeat itself. What history? What don't you want to relive? What don't you want to ever have happen again? It doesn't mean by talking about it that you're now committing to something, but this tension, this fear, yeah, can you pull it that thread a little bit?

Ishik  50:34  

I mean, so I think there's a couple of things I have to say. One on the topic of the fear. I think it's possible that fear is maybe the driving force for his wife. I don't know necessarily, because what is on the paper or what we saw was that she felt uncomfortable and weird and and shame, right? And those are in a fashion, maybe she's afraid of feeling those ways. Yeah, that's right, but I think that investigating, what was it about this previous dynamic? Was it just the general premise of non monogamy that's like, weird, quote, unquote, in like, it's bad? Is it a judgment thing? Where's that judgment coming from? Is it self judgment? Like really inspecting, I guess, what? What are her feelings about it? But beyond that, what I kind of want to talk a little bit more about is the fact that it is so clear. It is so crystal clear, from what you've written, how much you deeply care and love your partner, right? Like that. If that comes through so crystal clear for me reading this, I have to imagine, I have to hope, that that comes through for your wife as well, and that that is the foundation upon what you would potentially be doing in whatever kind of non monogamy you pursue, that that's that, that's what you're building it on and and the picture that I got is that that's not what the original non Monogamy was built on, right? So in terms of how it can be framed differently and to show that it's different, it is fundamentally different, that's the part that I would probably like focus in on, is that you have, she has nothing but evidence from you that you care deeply about her and that you are very, very concerned about her well being, and that any change around what else you want to do doesn't change that.

Genevieve  52:36  

I feel conflicted here, because I would have a lot more questions for her about her original motives for non monogamy the first time. So did she ever want non monogamy for herself? Did she ever enjoy this quad dynamic, even in the early days, it sounds like it, you know, ended really poorly. But just in terms of, does any part of her want non monogamy for herself? Any small part of her if the answer is no, and it's always been no, and she betrayed herself on day one of going into this quad, then I feel a bit more conflicted. Then it becomes a question of, either you shut down a part of yourself or she does. And if that is really the case, any direction you go is a decision that only the two of you can make. But if that's not the case, if any part of her ever wanted non monogamy, if in the beginning, she ever wanted that for herself, ever liked that for herself, then it sounds like something so bad happened in this quad that there's still some pain to work through, that there's still something that was so upsetting that it made her shut down part of herself and stop looking at it, you know, like, if that is the case, then I would say, Can the question be explored more, And where's the shame coming from? Because you also mentioned that she brought home the couple to meet her family, and that it didn't go great, right? And when somebody brings people home to their family, like, that's usually a sign of like, I like these people, and it's significant. I don't want to project that too much on I don't know the circumstance, but she brought them home, and it sounds like she was surrounded by people who shamed her for that, and she has a lot of that shame too. And regardless of what you wind up doing next, even if you stay monogamous moving forward, can that shame be digested and explored? So yeah, so I think a lot of my answer depends on what her self exploration would reveal, because if somebody really doesn't want this, then it becomes a bigger question. And I'm not really a fan of like people betraying themselves, you included, to be in a type of relationship you don't want. But if some part of her, I. You know ever wanted non monogamy for herself, then I wonder what she might feel after some more healing on what happened.

Ishik  55:09  

Looking at this as a whole, there has been an, I think, an over focus on her needs and a lack of focus on yours. And that is not because she's a villain or something, just because that's the way that the relationship has maybe shaken out a little bit. And the fact is, is that a relationship where one person's needs are not being met is kind of unsustainable. We've talked about this, I think, in the last Q and A rather than seeing this as the decision, the conversation that's gonna be the fork in the road in your relationship, that you're either gonna be together or you're not right. Maybe it's just a conversation to be willing to press for more conversations.

Genevieve  55:48  

If you absolutely cannot talk about it, cannot move forward, then can you at least talk about why you can't talk about it and start there.

Ishik  56:01  

Thank you all so much for your great questions. Obviously, we weren't able to get to everyone who sent them in by email and on Instagram and everything, but we really appreciate all of them again, as we've said probably a couple of times throughout this, take what resonates and what feels right and leave the rest. Obviously, we have to read into a lot of these sometimes, but hopefully you still found them helpful.

Genevieve  56:24  

Yeah, if we didn't answer your question and you would like to chat more, I do have a few ways of being in touch. I have a pen pal service as well as regular Q and A's on my patreon.com/chill. Polyamory as well. If you'd like to talk in real time, you can go to chillpolyamory.com and that's where I offer one on one chats, where we can go a bit more in depth into whatever it is that's on your mind. What are my other ones? Where else am I? Oh, and Patreon. On top of being able to chat, you know, with the live chats and the pen pals, there's also an archive of hundreds of resources of essays and toolkits and ways to help whatever your problem is. I've been posting every week since 2018 so I've got a backlog there. 

Ishik  57:12  

You got a lot of shit to a lot of stuff in there, you know, so you don't have to go hungry again. That's patreon.com/chillpolyamory. 

Genevieve  57:22  

If you want to join, do it on browser or Android, because Apple the app store, they add 30% because they're ghouls. So if you want, like, the actual lower price, just go to the website. Or if you have an Android phone, do it that way. 

Ishik  57:38  

Yeah, don't, let don't let Apple steal your money. Don't let Apple jack up the price. Yeah, monsters.

Ishik  57:45  

Well, I'm glad we get to end the season on the word monsters. That's good. I feel good about that. We are, you know, basically already in pre production for season three. No hard date on that, but keep an eye out. You know, stay subscribed to the podcast if you enjoy what you've heard, and you should get a notification once it uh, pops out there, yeah, um, as always, and more than ever, remember, just because you've never done something Before doesn't mean that you can't do it.