Genevieve  0:07  

Welcome to I Could Never… A podcast about non monogamy and the many ways it can look. I'm Genevieve from Chill Polyamory on Instagram, Tiktok and YouTube, and I'm joined by my co host and partner, Ishik. 

Ishik

Yes, I'm Ishik, and I am here digitally enhanced for your listening pleasure, but as always, not alone. Here today, our guest, fresh from once more, basking in the revitalizing beauty of their native Puerto Rico, is the wonderful Vico Ortiz. Welcome. 

Vico Ortiz

Thank you. Thank you. Buena buenas. Oh my goodness, thank you for that intro. An absolute pleasure and delight to be here. When Genevieve messaged me about this, I've been following you on Instagram for quite some time, and I really love your content. It's been the topic of conversation in many conversations that I've had with partners and with myself and in journaling as I continue to deconstruct non traditional relating. And so I'm very thrilled to be here. 

Genevieve 

I'm so glad. That makes me so happy. 

Ishik

Somebody's blushing. 

Vico Ortiz

Yes, I saw that post about Ricky Martin, liking one of your things, and I was like, Oh my gosh, is Ricky Martin, what's happening? 

Genevieve

I was beside myself getting excited. Yeah, that was a good day. Yeah. 

Ishik

But for any of our listeners who are not familiar with Vico, you might know them from their role as Jim Jimenez on HBO is our flag means death, potentially, as host of The today in gay podcast, or from, frankly, being one of the most bad ass drag kings that I have ever seen. So we are definitely super excited to have you here. Oh, thank you. It sounds like maybe it goes both ways, so that's cool, but first I have to clue all of our listeners in on a season long joke that you will not get until the very end of the season. So you have to listen to every single one. It's vibe or vent time, okay? 

Genevieve 

For anyone listening for the first time, we always like to start the show off with a little icebreaker called vibe or vent, where we'll each take a beat to share a bit about something that's either really making us happy recently or something that sucks, that we need to get off our chest. So if y'all don't mind, I can start us out. I'm vibing today, I am just coming back from a, I don't know, seven day burnout induced pause on work. And, you know, it's stressful to stop working when you're like, that's what created the burnout was a lot of just, you know, thinking constantly. You know, even when I'm in bed, I'm just thinking about ideas and stuff. And I have so many projects going on that I love to do, but it was imbalanced. And now coming back, we've got, like, a little bit more boundaries, because I work at home, you know, so I just carry work to all areas of home and but I feel rested, I feel so much lighter. So, you know, go, that's, that's a win for sleep. You know, if I could, this is a, this is an advertisement for sleep. It is. It's a game changer. So I'm vibing on that, just because I had the opportunity, which is not always possible. So, yeah, I'm feeling good today. But anyway, I would love to talk. Toss it to you, Vico, you know, how are you feeling? Are you vibing or venting today? 

Vico Ortiz

Oh I am. I'm totally vibing as well, because it has been, there was a lot to vent, and I have been venting a lot to process a lot of transitions have been happening in my life. So now that I got a lot done, I'm vibing, it feels good to feel grounded again. There was a moment where I was like, I don't know what's happening, what's going on. So having a bit of that feels like, Okay, I'm back to myself again. I'm back to my body. And that feels really, really good. So I'm vibing with that, yeah, I got you, yeah, that's awesome. I think, especially because that's definitely not an uncommon I think that that lack of feeling grounded and kind of unmoored. I think a lot of people are there right now, you know, and we got to keep moving. And I'm really glad that you're there and you're feeling good, and you're you've got kind of a handle on what's going on. Yeah, feels good. How about you?

Ishik  4:33  

I'm the downbeat one here. Totally fine, and it's allowed. Yeah, yeah. I'm venting. I'm venting today. And I'm gonna be totally honest, I don't really have, like, a fully cohesive thought, but this has been a kind of a tough weekend with another partner. Actually, there's a comet partner who has been a part of my life for a really long time, like seven, eight years. And since they're a comment, they're not around a lot, and our interactions are a little sparse. And, yeah, it was tough weekend. We got kind of into a big fight over a very small thing that became really big because it sort of revealed what I'm worried my. Be kind of a, like a fundamental disconnect between how we operate in relationship. I had been feeling more and more in the past year or so that it was maybe building towards something more integrated in the future, right? And I didn't know, I didn't have some kind of plan for that. There wasn't some kind of intention, but it was, uh, incredibly, deeply disappointing, yeah, and pretty saddening. So I don't, I don't know exactly where, where it's going right now, and that sucks. I don't feel like it's, it's something that's just gone from my life, but I think it might be something that might need to be re examined, because if, if this is what, such a small, kind of insignificant conflict looked like. That's not something that I can have closely integrated in my life. So that's, it's, yeah, it's, uh, pretty shitty. Yeah, pretty shitty. 

Vico Ortiz

That makes a lot of sense. Makes a lot, a lot of sense, especially because your comment, you know, you don't really see these things so frequently. So they don't come up as they come up. I'm sure they come up, of course, but because of the structure of the way their relationship operates, like you're not with this person, you know, once a week in person, or, like, three times a week, or like, or doing cohabitation, or whatever that may be, so like, those moments like, don't show up as much. So it makes a lot of sense that all of a sudden it's like, wait, maybe, maybe there's a fundamental difference in the way we like approach conflict. 

Ishik  6:24  

I mean, exactly you hit the nail on the head, and that's exactly what kind of happened. And I think, and maybe we'll get into some of this, because, you know, being a public figure who's out as polyamorous, you know this, this might be something that you also had to navigate. But like, how much to say, how much to share about, especially the struggle times, right? Like, it can be a lot easier to be like, everything is great. I have all these great partners and so awesome, and we still love each other. It's all great. But like, yeah, it can be tough to say, like, yeah, actually, it's tough sometimes, absolutely so, well, I mean, I would say, in the interest of that, I'd love to kind of start from getting a sense of what the shape of your relationship structure looks like, and if you can tell us a little bit about the relationships that are close to you right now?

Vico Ortiz  7:11  

Absolutely with A very, very general brush stroke, I practice non hierarchical solo polyamory with major asterisks on non hierarchical and solo. Because, of course, there's a lot of debate with like, what hierarchy means. And I currently only have one anchor partner at the moment, and I feel really good about that. I think in the in the past, I would have, like, immediately gone into the apps to, like, find another person. And I am again reminding myself that, of course, yes, now I have a lot of capacity, but I don't want to just immediately find, you know, somewhere else to put that capacity, that it's like another person. So I'm like, putting that energy in more creative projects and really setting up what it is that I desire moving forward when it comes to meeting someone new. And while saying non hierarchical, I acknowledge that there will be and there are relationships that I have that have carried privilege. There was a time I had two anchor partners, one of them lived in the same city as me, and the other one was long distance. That person that lived near me had the privilege that if I wanted to have an impromptu, spontaneous date, they could, you know, while the person that was long distance did not have that privilege. And in that same situation, whenever I visited the long distance partner, I lived with that person. So the person who lived in the same city as me did not have, like, cohabitating privileges, while the person that was long distance did have that. So I acknowledge those things. I had to anchor partners. And I was kind of feeling pretty much like, Okay, I got the hang of like, you know, being in this two relationships, and I'm like, I think I have a little bit of time to kind of, like, see someone a bit more casually. And when I say casual now that doesn't mean that that there's a lack of care, respect, consideration, love. And so when I met this person and we talked about expectations and everything, I was very upfront about like, Hey, I currently have like, two anchor partnerships these people I am very enmeshed with, like, emotionally, physically, spiritually, I see them pretty often. I have plans with these people in the future, and that's how I'm operating with this. My capacity for something new is pretty low. I can see someone like, maybe once every other week, once a month. I know that seems like very short amount of time, but like, that's where I'm at right now. And they were like, actually, this is actually this is actually perfect, because I also have a lot going on in my hand, so like, this works beautifully. And we set up an amazing conversation about, like, what our expectations were in terms of, like, talking to each other, how often do we text, how we check in, SDI, testing, all that jazz. There was such like, understanding of, like, what we wanted out of it. And. And I think that just good across the board, regardless of how short or long the relationship, you know, is gonna be. Anyway, I say a light brush stroke, and I go into, like, a whole conversation about each thing, um, I also like, I mean, whenever they hear this, I have a friend who I consider, like a life partner, anchor partner. You know, our romance is incredibly platonic and beautiful. And I think that also this person is someone that I very much like, consider when I when it comes to like, big life choices, and someone that I, you know, prioritize in seeing and going on dates with, and creating and fostering life with so something that also polyamory has helped me is that, yes, of course, there's, like, romantic and sexual relationships, and also, of course, your friends can be part of the polycule. So yeah, I have one anchor partner that's romantic and sexual, and I have a romantic, platonic, romantic anchor friendship that I like, love and adore.

Ishik  11:02  

I would love to kind of get a sense of of your starting point with non monogamy, kind of what was your earliest exposure, or your like, your first experiences trying to navigate it? 

Vico Ortiz  11:14  

Oh, yeah, definitely nowhere near what it is right now at all. Like a lot of polyamorous stories. I began in a monogamous relationship that was very long term, and I wasn't voicing a lot of my day to day anxieties because I was with someone who had a really rough job, and I did not want to overwhelm this person with my mundane, casual, regular, day to day troubles. So I kept it all to myself, and we lived together the whole shebang. Then this person got a job in a different city, and I was like, All right, let's do long distance, right? Because, like, I'm gonna be with your ass forever, so you do this job for the year, and then you come back and Bada, bing bada, boom, we got it right. And when this person left, and all of a sudden I am left by my lonesome, all of the things that I kept to myself started to bubble up. And also, like I was by myself going to things in places, and people were like looking at me with like, googly eyes, and I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm attractive. People think I'm cute. And I got all, like, mushy and shit, and I and I was like, Oh, well, maybe we should just open up the relationship, right? Like, well, we're, you know, in this one year long distance moment. And I had no knowledge, I came in at this, like, completely raw with no information. I just have been hearing about people, like, opening relationships and all like, for sure, I can open it to, like, fuck around, and we didn't have any of the conversations that we needed to have. And this person said yes to me because this person did not want me to leave, which is, that's a red flag for everybody. And and so we opened it, and I was just like doing it, because I was like, people think I'm hot. So I was like, I want to fuck around. And so it started with that, but then I started to get a lot of attention, and then I started to kind of catch fifis for one of the people that I was like seeing. And I was like, Oh no, because then I was not ready for that. And I also was being really sneaky. It was a lot, because I did not want to, like, you know, upset her more, and I was and which made it, of course, worse. And I remember one time this person told me, like, You're cheating on me. And I was like, Well, you said yes to opening the relationship, which was such a bullshit thing to say. I apologized later down the line when I realized that, yes, I was cheating on you, and I'm really sorry I hurt you, it took accountability for my actions and all that jazz, but at the time, I did not have the tools at all to handle all the mistakes I was making. So instead of like pausing, I shut it all down. I broke up with the person that I was with, I ended things with everybody that I was seeing, and began what I like to call the fuck boy phase, but yeah, like me. I didn't do sleepovers. I didn't do like. I didn't wake up at someone's like apartment and made them coffee like I if I had an arrangement with a friend. If we were hanging out as friends, it was friendship. We were not holding hands. We're not being romantic. And if later we wanted to, like, hook up, it would be like a different thing. While some of those things could have been boundaries, I definitely know that I was putting up walls. And I rode that high for a while. Ego was like, I'm clocking in. I got you all those uncomfortable fans, don't worry about it. You're fine. You're so good. You're like, in just feeding me off on that right? So I was like, All right, bet. But upon further review, I was so not ready to like face my own feelings about anything, about the grief that I was feeling for the breakup, about the guilt that I felt, about the blame that I felt I. I was not ready to my ego was working overtime protecting me from all the uncomfortable feelings. And then lockdown happened, and the hyper speed of external stimulation stopped immediately. I had to just jump out of the train. There was no other option but to stay at home and not go out period, and nothing to look at but within myself and face all the demons. And so I was so ashamed for all the mistakes I had made, and I was so scared of looking like a bad person. I was just like, I know I'm not bad, but I keep fucking up and a lot of like crying finally, because I was like, I didn't let myself feel the grief of that breakup up and like it had almost been two years since the breakup happened, when I finally, like, allowed myself to process that relationship and to finally realize the ways in which, like, I had hurt this person, and to, like, take accountability for that and know that that didn't mean I was a bad person, and just really hold space for multiple truths at the same time, which for a while I was operating from. It's all or nothing, it's this or that. So I it's not just that. I I know, like, while I was in my like, quote, unquote fuck boy phase, I desperately wanted depth. I desperately wanted to like, know someone deeply. I wanted to like, connect emotionally, but I just was so scared of doing so and continuing to hurt people, because that what, that's what happened to me, and it really deterred me from opening up and like being vulnerable and surrendering to an emotional connection, even though I desperately desired it, but it took me a little bit to figure that out, but I knew that I was able to feel feelings for more than one person at a time, and I knew that I wanted it. So yeah, but yeah, I've been practicing it intentionally four and a half, almost five years, and it's been fucking beautiful.

Ishik  17:13  

So with there being so much struggle, when you open that first relationship, was it hard or or, you know, like, what was it like as you tried to build new habits and do things a little differently?

Vico Ortiz  17:26  

In my very first like intentionally polyamorous relationship, which is with the partner that I'm with right now, I began making mistakes, and they had experienced a really terrible relationship right before, with someone that cheated on them, and things that I was doing were not wrong. They were just triggering old wounds. I had an opportunity where I was going to repeat a pattern and noticed it, and I had to be like, Okay, I'm gonna have to talk about this, because if we go in this direction, I'm putting an expiration date on this relationship. If I continue, like, if this is the path, if I continue this path, we we have an end. There's an end. Like, there's no other way. Like, I'm gonna end up resenting them. They're gonna end up resenting me. And I just saw it. I was like, I saw I saw the pattern. I was like, Oh no, okay, so I either repeat it or or we stop it on its tracks. Um, stopping in these tracks was rough, though. We call that event the boomerang. We have been talking about cohabitating. From my perspective, I took it as if we didn't try cohabitation, then we will no longer be anchor partners and they would leave me. And in my head, I knew we don't have to live together in order to be anchor like, we can be anchor partners and not cohabitate, but if we don't cohabitate, they're going to leave me and they're they're not going to, they're going to stop being my anchor partner. So I panicked, and I expedited the process of moving in together. This was, like, two years ago, because out of fear I was not ready. I could feel myself like, really, just like, not ready to, like, let go of my place, as being my place. I I could see myself getting really tense whenever they would visit, and like, being really, I don't like that, I don't like that, I don't like this. And like, I could see, I could see myself really, just like, oh no. Like, I don't know if I can live with this person. Fuck, but we're doing it, because if we don't do it, they're gonna leave me. And then I had to, like, really sit with the whole all or nothing again. It's like, why is it all or nothing? How about we slow down? How about we like, you know, hey, it's not that it's off the table. It's just that, like, let's take a moment to really think about this. I need to think about this. And so when I noticed that I was doing it from fawning and people pleasing and all that jazz I had to sit with that, I made a little document, a little word document, because I get really nervous. And not so much anymore, but I get in the very beginning, whenever I, like, brought up conflict, I got really, really nervous. So I would make a document where that, where I would write my my intention for this conversation is that, and then, like, then I would, like, break down. I'm like, this happened, and it triggered, and this comes from and I would just like, create, like, a Google Sheet. But anyway, when that, that day happened, I set them down on the couch, and I had my laptop with me, with the Google Sheet, and just like sobbing, like letting them know, I'm like, I know I've said all this, and I and it's not that I don't want it. It's just, I just don't want it right now. And, like, panicking. And of course, they're also, like, getting triggered, because it's like, they've been figuring out their side of logistical stuff to, like, move in with me. Like, they started planning. Yeah, they started planning. They started doing a bunch of stuff. Like they were, they were on, like, it sucks. You know, that's what we call it the Boomerang, because it just just kind of, we were going one way, and then, like, all of a sudden, wait, just kidding. And so that was, that was rough. And of course, you know, they had a moment. They were like, told me, they told me they really got to sit with that. Because, have there been other moments where you've been fawning? Have you been in other moments people pleasing? Like, I'm having a really hard time, like, trusting right now, and I'm like, That makes a lot of sense. And I really, like, I was like, I really want you to know that this was not easy for me, and I really want to be with you, like, for as long as this life lets me, and I am going to do my best so that as we continue to grow, I can notice these things beforehand and not just say yes because I'm panicking, but like, take some time to process, rather than just jumping in the gun and, like, you know, saying yes because I'm afraid of rejection. So like, I know this sucks right now. I know that you have a really hard time trusting me. We'll figure this out, but I just know that I'm committed to, like, unlearning this and, like, having a healthier, like, relationship moving forward.

Ishik  21:40  

Wow, that sounds like it was really intense. 

Vico Ortiz  21:43  

It's not for the faint of heart, but it took, yeah, it took two it took two years and a pause in the relationship as well. Sometimes people say, Let's pause in the relationship. And pause is just an elongated version of like, well, we'll break up at the end, which has happened to me too. 

Genevieve  22:00  

So how did you actually bring that up, though, to make sure that it wasn't just a long, drawn out breakup?

Vico Ortiz  22:06  

After yeah, after a bit, it was like, Okay, I want you. And they were like, I want you. And I was like, Okay, I know it's gonna be really rough to hear, and I think that it might be triggering. But I was like, I really, I think that having a somatic end to this relationship that we've we currently have, and then give us, like, a two week pause and re evaluate how we want to show up for each other in this new relationship. Will be really, really helpful to like, then be like, Oh, hi. Like, hello, new version of Vico and like, all that jazz. And so we did a whole ritual for the end of that previous relationship. We ended the first book of our never ending trilogy, and then now we're opening a new book, and we're like, we were not forgetting about the previous book, because, of course, there's a lot of stuff there that we are, of course, learning from. And like, we can go back and be like, Oh yeah, remember that time that happened, but having that somatic end and then have a somatic beginning. Was, like, fucking beautiful. 

Genevieve  23:04  

Wow. That's such a, that's such an arc.

Ishik  23:07  

So, you know, you described how much you used to avoid having hard conversations, and I'm wondering how you got from there to being able to have a talk as hard as this one you're describing in the boomerang. You know, can you think of a time where you still had that old impulse to avoid conflict, but were a little more determined to do things differently? 

Vico Ortiz  23:33  

Oh, my gosh. I know that when one of the first initial conversations around them, being in the same city as me was a touch and go. It was like, How do you feel? Hey, maybe you don't live with me, but how do you how does it feel like living in the same city that way, we're no longer, like, long distance, the way that I have to, like, take a plane for 12 hours. You know, are you sure you want this? And I was like, yes, it's not that I don't want you nearby. Is that I'm not ready to, like, have you in, like, my apartment just yet? And so it took us a bit. I mean, this, this combo, happened two years ago, and then it wasn't until last year, in November, where we began talking about cohabitating again, when we were negotiating how to look like and how it is. It's like, Oh man, this is the difference of, like, having a conversation where you're coming from a space of, like, safety and certainty within myself and yourself, and feeling at ease knowing that, like we're not saying this because we want to please the other, that's fucking rad. It really is different. Like, energetically, I feel the difference, and it feels really fucking good. 

Ishik  24:38  

So as you were expanding your relationships and adding new people to the mix. You know another anchor partner, casual partners. Your your anchor friend. How did you talk to them and decide how each relationship would look?

Vico Ortiz  24:51  

For sure, I know that with the anchor partner that I'm with right now, when we first met, we both. Know that we went in pretty hot, hot and heavy, hot. We came in hot, you know? And we became anchor partners pretty quickly. And of course, is with the boomerang and everything we've had various ways of renegotiating. We know ultimately, we wanted to be with each other for the rest of our lives. And it got for a moment where I was like, Oh, shit, hold up. How does, how does that look like, right? How does that look like? We had a moment where we were sitting down and I was like, Hey, we've been together longest, and whomever comes next, we're gonna have to acknowledge that we have, we have privilege in the fact that we've been together longest, and whomever is new, it's, this is a new person, period, right? And whether we're dating this person at the same time, or we're dating individually, whatever that may be, because we're we're also, we've talked about the potential of, like, what if, like, we like, adopt a kid and like we meet another, like another. Was it a throuple or a couple, or what, a quad, or whatever, of parents with kids that are on the same age, and we all kind of like, dig each other, and we decide to like, anyway, yeah, it's always a fantasy that I'm like, what if we're just like, in the playground, and we're seeing a couple bunch of other parents on the side, and we're like, Hey, I like your parenting style. 

Ishik  26:16  

Hey, that's some, that's some pretty good middle-age flirting. I love your parenting style. What's up?

Vico Ortiz  26:22  

I know, right? Like, what's up? Do you want to parent together? You know, it's an option. But yeah, we, it was like we, we have to acknowledge that, that we have a privilege of being together the longest. And when I met the other person, it took a little bit to become anchor partners, because I also had learned from the previous relationship. They were like, Okay, let me, let's maybe not rush into anchor partnership, like, right off the bat, but I do feel a strong connection with this person. I want to explore what that looks like. Of course, there were a lot of like, ups and a lot of downs and a lot of figuring out, how does that look like? And ultimately, you know, ended in in the termination of the relationship. And so that's been something that I've been like, processing a lot, because I know that for sure. Like, moving forward, whenever I meet someone new, I want to be really intentional about the questions I ask. Right off the bat, it's like, okay, I have this, like, really strong connection. What's your capacity look like? What's my capacity look like? How does your like structure look like? Right now. I remember when I had been on a few dates, not recently. I remember I like, want to date with someone, and I was asking questions more because I was seeing I was just, I wanted a date with this person more so to have, like, a physical intimate relationship, nothing necessarily in a much more deeper emotional level. 

Ishik  27:38  

That was a very diplomatic way of saying you were trying to fuck.

Vico Ortiz  27:44  

I just wanted to have sex and so and so, the questions that I was asking were geared towards that. And this person had a boyfriend, and they have been together for 10 years, and they have been a little bit on and off towards the end. And I was like being curious about that, what's what's their dynamic looking like, what's their structure looking like, and the answers that this person was gaming me were not feeling like they really knew what what they were doing. So I decided that it did not feel safe to just even fuck. Unfortunately, now that I have a bit more capacity, or my capacity is like changing, I definitely know that whenever I date again, it's gonna feel like a bit of a job interview and be like, Okay, what are your structures right now? Like, what's your experience? Like, what I'll I currently don't have a list of questions that I want to ask, but I know for sure that I while the feelings are abundant capacity time, all that jazz is not as abundant. So I want to make sure that I honor those things and all of a sudden don't just like follow a feeling and then get burned at the end. 

Genevieve  28:53  

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I know it's a deal. Everyone has different things that are deal breakers for them, so there's not universal red flags, necessarily always, for sure, but yeah, I mean, people often ask me, like, what is a bad answer? What should I look out for? So you said this person had some answers that made you not feel like you even wanted to hook up. Would you be open to telling us? Like, what? What made you kick the breaks? You know for sure,

Vico Ortiz  29:17  

I asked, what's their STI practice, and there wasn't a very clear answer, so that that was a, that was a beige, because in my head, I was like, Okay, well, you're only seeing your boyfriend, and you guys have been together for like, a decade. So, like, maybe, of course, you haven't had SDI testing, although you should anyway, but, like, okay, so I was like, beige, red. But if you're going out and about and you're, you know, seeing multiple people and you don't have an SDI practice, that's definitely a red flag. So, and I was like, beige, let me just keep asking questions. And then I was asking more about their dynamic and like any agreements that they had made, and there were no real answers around that. And I was like, so how does it look like if you have someone sleeping over, or how does it. Look like if you sleep over at someone's place. And there was no real answers on how any of that looked like. So I was like, so you seem have, you have not had conversations with this person at all about how does it look? I was like, there's a moment where I was like, Does this person even know that you're here with me tonight? There was a moment where I was like, hmm, I don't know. Yo, I don't know. It just feels a little sneaky, a little sneaky, and so that's why I was like, I think I'm all right. I think I'm good, but only I don't need to do this today, which in the past, I would have been like, fuck. It. Not my problem. That's not my boyfriend. So bye.

Ishik  30:45  

You are very proudly Puerto Rican, yes, in kind of navigating, I always like to see how identities can intersect with non monogamous practices and and I'd love to get a little bit of your experience of being out as, not only, you know, non binary and trans, but also as non monogamous to your family and community.

Vico Ortiz  31:06  

Oh, my gosh, yeah, I love it. Well, I feel like I'm healing a family thing by being openly polyamorous. Because my great grandma never married and had three men that she was seeing who were married and had kids somewhere else in the island, I don't even know. And she did this. She lived by herself. She had a bunch of kids with all these, all these men who were married with other people. And I, her name is Daniel concha, and I always, I have her very near and dear. I feel her in all my rituals, I feel her around me often. I know that she's always there with me, and so I feel like I'm like healing that by being openly and publicly, you know, polyamorous. So that feels really good. My parents know about my polyamory. My dad the very first time I, like, told him, he was like, I mean, people were fucking doing everybody. They just they're doing in secret. And I was like, cool, that. I think that went well, um, the first time I told my mom, her reaction was a bit more like, so you were cheating. And I was like, actually, I was, but not anymore.

Vico Ortiz  32:23  

It's complicated. It's like, actually, I have that was not okay, but now it's not like that. But of course, you very much can still cheat in polyamory. It sucks. But yeah, no, it was, it was the initial one. But then the more we talked about it, and the more both of them have seen it in motion, you know, not just with me, but like, you know, with my partner, and seeing other people and like, they've, it's, for a moment, they were like, is it just you who see? And I was like, No, it's, and they're really sweet when they ask questions, and whenever I tell them, like, oh yeah. Like, this partner is going out with, you know, this person, like, I'm just, it's, I talk it as if it was as normal as it feels for me. And it's been really sweet. There was a time also that my dad had a birthday in PR, and then the partner that was here was on a birthday dinner with my parents, and I was in anniversary with another partner, and I FaceTimed, and it was like, All right, we're doing it, you know, like we're in it. And my parents have met everybody, and it's been really sweet. My mom has also asked about my anchor friend. Have you thought about like, being with this person that was like, Well, we did have a moment of a will we won't we will they, won't they? And it felt like friendship was like the most satisfactory aligning route for the both of us. And one was like, okay, cool, cool, cool, just check in. Just check in. So it's really sweet to see, you know, my parents with it. And I had a moment, I do, I definitely want to continue expanding this, because I know I'm very open with my parents, and I realized that maybe I've not been as open I talk about it with the rest of my family, but I don't think I've officially, like, talked it as like, Hey, I am polyamorous. I've just been talking about partners, and I don't think they've my my the rest of my family has, like, really internalized it. So I'm curious that whenever I have, like, a holiday or some sort of party and I'll they see everybody out and about doing their thing, yeah, I wonder how they're gonna react. But I think, I mean, if my family at this point is just like, what's next? What else are you gonna bring to the table? Like, you can't shock me with anything else anymore, they're just, they're just like, okay, okay, what's gonna what's happening now? But, um, but, yeah, culturally, culturally, men had a lot of women, and women only had the the one, right? Like my brother and I, when we're little, like, I remember one of my grandma's Ma, she rest in peace. She would ask him, like, how are your girlfriends? And then my brother was fucking nine, you know, I'm saying, and then, like, she would look at me as, like, how's your boyfriend? And I'm like, okay, hold up. Like I have a singular one, but then, like, my brother can have multiple the fuck. So it's wildly known culturally that that's happening so and also how jealousy is played into if you're not jealous, you you're you don't really love this person. Like there's a lot of stuff that I've had to deconstruct, you know, where for back in my monogamous heterosexual life, I thought that I needed to make the boyfriend jealous in order to, like, get a rise out of him, you know, which is so fucked up, it's like, not okay. Everybody should feel safe and across the board in the relationship. And similarly, because of that cultural like association with jealousy and anger and violence, I had a lot of shame for Feeling jealousy. Once I begin to kind of be like, okay, you know, hold up. Like, jealousy is this feeling and it's telling me something what's going on. Let's, like, be kind and like, loving. I'm not gonna react out of jealousy. I can, like, feel it and acknowledge it, and like, figure out what's up. And maybe there's a need that I haven't, like, voiced, or whatever that may be, but yeah, that that culturally, those are the things that I've had to like, be like, okay, hold up. Let's reframe some of the stuff and reconfigure out some of those. Because no bueno.

Ishik  36:11  

So, I mean, I'm gonna keep going because I have so many more questions. So, you know, obviously at the top I introduced some of the work you've done. And although I think probably a lot of people might know you from our flag means death, and I think for anyone who's seen it, for any fans, the non monogamous over and undertones are not exactly subtle, you know, I think I certainly could see myself in there. And I think a lot of people have kind of claimed the show as like a polyamorous show, yes, and so, you know, I'd love to just kind of get a sense from you of what it was like getting to participate in a show that, at minimum, didn't denigrate that those kinds of connections, and maybe even celebrated them and navigated them and explored them more.

Vico Ortiz  37:02  

I loved it. I absolutely loved it. And, I mean, when I was working on the first season I had was finishing up reading poly secure, and I was talking about this book that I'm reading and how excited I am about dating, and, like, all these things and like, Oh my gosh. So all the writers have known my dating life pretty, pretty intimately. It was really cool to have them, like, ask me questions and be like, okay, so how would it look like, you know, if these two characters, like shifted and like without like being very like, the same thing that happened with Jim in the first season about like, what it means to be non binary or gender fluid, or gender queer or agender, it's just like, I'm just, I'm just gym, right? And as someone, as I've said in the show, that I've learned a lot about myself and I through polyamory and through being with multiple people at the same time that showcase different things about me, and I've accessed different parts of me through this, right? I similarly wanted that for gym, where like gym starts to access more of their tenderness and softness because of their dynamic with olu, and then then with their dynamic with like Archie, they start to access more of their playfulness, which is really sweet is that is you see them like, kind of grow and like learn and unpack, like who they are and taking more space in the in the in the pirate ship, for the scene where I say that olu is my anchor. It's also kind of, you know, a little thing with the it's a, it is a ship, you know, pirate ship. It's like, this makes sense. This person's my anchor, right?

Ishik  38:29  

Um, I'll say that, yeah. Personally, my favorite line, kind of, in the vein of this stuff, was when Jim was like, I mean, I don't know, I if I feel weird saying a line that you deliver, but, but, you know, says, you know, I wanted to tell you because you're the person i You're like the friend I want to tell these things to absolutely and I was just like, Oh, my life. My life on screen.

Vico Ortiz  38:52  

100%, 100% it's like, I want you to be happy and find fulfillment in all your relationships.

Genevieve  38:58  

And be able to come home and tell your friends and your partners about your date and how great it was. Yeah, because you're excited.

Vico Ortiz  39:06  

There's a lot of other stuff that, of course, you know, gets cut because of time and all that jazz. But even in that party, olu has like, a little flower on his vest, and it was a flower that Jim gave him at the market because Jim smelled. And I was like, smells like that chick you were making out with, you know, like, Do you miss her? And we have a whole conversation about that. And I was like, I'm gonna put this flower on you so that you have, like, that reminder. So even those three of us dancing, like, Zhang's jasmine flowers are there, like, in that, like, you know, moment. And I was really, I was like, man, have we got a third season. How dope would it be to see, how does that look like we're dragging too, and, like, how are we, the four of us, you know, in this scenario, right? Are we all together? Are we not? Is it, you know, what's the vibe? Are we into each other? Like, you know, I'm sure we are, in my head, we are, but, yeah, it was. It was really, really amazing to have. Of some dope Convos. 

Genevieve  40:02  

You're like a polyamory consultant for HBO, low key.

Vico Ortiz  40:07  

Low key, high key, low key, high key. Yeah, there were so many sweet moments in that show that really just felt it felt very affirming.

Ishik  40:16  

And I think specifically, that sweetness and that playfulness and that ease being depicted on screen is what was so awesome about it. Because, like, so often, I mean, Genevieve has an entire YouTube channel just looking at non monogamy in film and TV. And like, we have this big, long list of movies and shows, and like so many of them are just like, maybe we'll get to it later, because it's the same story again and again. Of like, wow, we're trying to open up, and it's hard and bad.

Genevieve  40:42  

They're just bummers. 

Ishik  40:44  

The whole thing's a bummer, or the conflict itself is just the premise of, can non monogamy work? And so it's like, really refreshing to see a show that not only isn't, you know, viewing non monogamy as a conflict point, but as, like, a point of joy and like, yeah, pleasure and just being easy and fun, just being like, yes, that's actually what it looks like a lot of the time. 

Vico Ortiz  41:07  

Yes, right now I'm, like, about, like, after this, I'm gonna have dinner with my partner and then just, like, drive them to a date. You know I'm saying so like, that kind of stuff is like, so sweet. Like, I love that.

Genevieve  41:21  

It's really valuable everything you shared today. So thank you. 

Vico Ortiz  41:24  

Thank you. My goodness.

Ishik  41:26  

I'd love to invite you to plug any other projects you're working on, or anything you want to let the audience know about.

Vico Ortiz  41:32  

Absolutely, I have a lot of creative endeavors that I'm currently doing. I'm doing a lot of writing. You can see some samples of that on my Patreon, which I believe is just patron.com/vico_tease if I'm not mistaken, I have a solo show that I am now in the process of, like, getting it up and running and drag like I get to validate my femininity and my masculinity all at the same time and celebrate it. And since I'm in Puerto Rico, I might end up doing it in Spanish first, which is actually kind of nice. I'm into that, and I'm beginning to be more active on blue sky via Vico, dash Ortiz. I'm trying to stir. I'm slowly but surely doing the transition between social medias and trying to, like, not use meta as much. Is going to be a transition on its own. But yeah, I'm writing a lot, and I'm excited about that. It's nerve wracking to put a piece of your soul and your heart on a piece of digital paper and sharing it with the world and then eventually do it on stage. But I'm excited.

Genevieve  42:39  

And if people want to check out the show that we were talking about, where can they stream it? 

Vico Ortiz  42:43  

You can watch our flag means death on max. It's HBO. It's HBO Max. HBO.

Ishik  42:49  

Cut the audio of my eyes rolling, you had to say, Yeah, instead of strange branding, just.

Vico Ortiz  42:56  

Anyway, it's HBO Max. You're gonna be fine. But yeah, and I'm also on sex labs with college girls. Their third season is out as well on max and podcast, oh, I have a podcast, right. So, right. You can also listen to me straight up every day, Monday through Friday, on today in gay pod, it's available wherever you get your podcasts, and you can also follow us on sub stack if you want more in depth, ETS links to all of our research and safe community chats as well. But yeah, today in gay podcasts, when they Beaver and bexcalar clowns, Ah, that's right. 

Ishik  43:42  

I think that's the first time I've ever had to be like, hey, plug this. 

Genevieve  43:44  

Here's another thing they're doing a lot. I mean, that is fair. 

Vico Ortiz  43:49  

I was like, right? I have this. I have this podcast. So good.

Ishik  43:55  

Well, if you're looking for more specifically polyamory content, Genevieve, as always, is on Tiktok and Instagram at chill polyamory. Also, as mentioned, she's on YouTube at chill polyamory, where she discusses non monogamy and film and TV.

Genevieve  44:08  

So if you're listening and you want to support those projects and this podcast directly on Patreon, where you'll get early access to videos, private stories, live Q and A's an option for one on one peer support. There's a lot there. So that's patreon.com/chill, polyamory. 

Ishik  44:23  

And to all of our listeners, this has been I could never and remember that just because you've never done something before doesn't mean that you can't do it. Bye.