Genevieve  0:06  

Welcome to I Could Never, a show about non monogamy and the many ways it can look. My name is Genevieve from Chill Polyamory on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube, and I'm joined, as always, by my co host and partner, Ishik.

Ishik  0:18  

Yes, sweltering in the hot summer sun indoors here in Berlin, where they don't have air conditioning. I'm Ishik. What's up? How's it going? Welcome to our guest today, Willie Burnley Jr, the city councilor and mayoral candidate for the City of Somerville, Massachusetts, where he has led the nation in developing legal protections for polyamorous citizens, along with many other wonderful things. So Willie, thank you so much for joining us here today. No,

Willie Burnley Jr  0:51  

thank you both for having me. This is like a dream come true in a certain sense.

Ishik  0:55  

Oh, that's sweet. That's awesome.

Genevieve  0:57  

Well, we are excited to learn more about you, but I think beforehand. Excuse me, I've stolen your intro to Vibe or Vent.

Genevieve  1:07  

It's Vibe or Vent time. It's

Ishik  1:09  

vibrant time, and it's toe stepping time

Genevieve  1:13  

for anybody who is watching for the first time, we have a little icebreaker called vibe or vent, where we go around and just talk about something that we're either excited about this week, that we're vibing about, or something that we're pissed about, that we need to get off our chest. So ishik, would you like to start us

Ishik  1:27  

out? Oh no, no, no. Since we're on toast, you're gonna go ahead and be in the hot seat. You get to be first this time. If you introduce it, you you take the

Genevieve  1:35  

keep it light today. Actually, because I'm vibing, I have a new friend. I don't know, I gush about new friends like I do, like new crushes or new partners. I have a friend that I've known for a couple of years, and we've gotten closer, and we collaborated on a creative project together. And in the back of my mind, I was like, I hope we can be friends, but Germans can sometimes take years to open up. And we went, we got Japanese shaved ice today, and it just felt really comfortable. And I just realized, like, oh shit, we're friends. You know, it just kind of dawned on me. And so I'm feeling warm and fuzzy, because it can be hard to really build deep friendships, especially in like a new country. So that's what's going on for me today, Willie, I would love to know, Are you vibing, or are you venting

Willie Burnley Jr  2:24  

today? I'm vibing. I'm really glad that we're talking about this right now, because you know, any other minute of any other day, who knows how it would be feeling. But we just had a great Canvas yesterday, followed by our first Willie fest, like a local concert music series. Yeah, it was great to just see people come out supporting local artists, supporting our arts ecosystem, Somerville. Not to go on too long about it, but Somerville is a really creative place, and is like has long been seen as a very artsy space, but like so many other places, it's getting harder to afford to live here, and so we're fighting to make sure that we can continue to have that creative ecosystem.

Genevieve  3:07  

And that's where you come in.

Ishik  3:10  

I like how you're like, oh, not to go on too much, you know, too long, about this place that I love and that I want to, you know, become the mayor of. It's

Genevieve  3:19  

like, brag. Cool well is shake. How about you vibe intervent into that?

Ishik  3:24  

I don't know. It's a pretty big vent. I'm gonna be honest, just like a prep for the listeners and viewers. To date, this a little bit. So late last night Trump's administration launched strikes against Iran, and Iran, excuse me, and it's, it's pretty fucked, right? The whole thing, I don't want to turn this into too much of a large rant about geopolitics, but let's just say, anyone who knows the pod will know probably where we stand on this. The entire situation is fucked. It's it's just bad. It's just really bad. Everything about everything that's going on with regards to the Trump administration is is really bad, right? It's just been a string of really bad continuously. And like, you know, I think it was a really positive thing to see people in the streets recently standing up for the rights of their fellow human beings and citizens and non citizens alike. But today is a bad day when it comes to that, right? So that's that's definitely weighing on my chest a bit. You know, obviously, we have space for both vibes and vents here at I could never, but I couldn't think of anything else I was trying to be like, Is this too much to bring to it's happening. Started the conversation. It's happening right? Like we all know every all three of us, it's not like we're walking into this not aware of what's going on. And so it's definitely tough to have other conversations. But I think it's really important to still keep having conversations and keep fighting for the things that we can do we can change. Which brings us to our guest today, who has been doing quite a bit of fighting for his community. So Willie, we'd love to get to know you a little bit more. And given that the context of this podcast is obviously a show about non monogamy and the many ways it can look. We'd love to just hear a little bit more about how you know how your non monogamy has looked, and how you kind of identify with the concept.

Willie Burnley Jr  5:32  

Yeah, so I'm polyamorous. I kind of identify with solo poly and relationship anarchism, I was lucky enough to like move into non monogamy while being single, I just gotten out of a monogamous relationship. I felt so shitty, and I felt so sad and useless and a little bit worthless, not entirely, but I had to start to think for myself. Why is it when I'm not in a relationship, do I feel like I'm less valuable as a person? Why is it that I've internalized this idea that if I'm not currently dating somebody, I am not a desirable human being? I kind of had to unearth a lot of negative self talk and negative socialization. I learned from monogamy, the idea that if you're single, you're especially I was thinking, I'm thinking from the perspective of a man, that just means you're not good enough. No one really wants you. You're a loser, you're this, you're that. And ironically, polyamory for me in relationship, anarchism for me, really broke down those layers and made me realize my first relationship is with myself, and I need to be good with that person at the end of the day, and I take that with me in all aspects of life, not just romantic, but political as well. I don't want to do things that I'm gonna have to look in myself in the mirror for and be like, What are you doing? You're not living your values. And there was something about the idea of having multiple relationships, but also centering my relationship with myself. You know, if one relationship begins and ends, that is not the end all be all of my own value as a human being, and it's not even a statement on the value of that relationship, because another thing I feel like I internalized because of monogamy is if you date someone and you break up, that relationship was a failure. If you don't live together forever and die, then you fail. Because I think it really reduces the value of human connection so much and the lessons we learn from each other that it started me on this journey of understanding myself in a different way, and understanding how I can connect with people that I've been doing and exploring for the last 10 years now.

Genevieve  7:58  

Yeah, what was that like for you being single and discovering this, and then it's like, okay, I want this, but how do I talk to people about it? Was there awkwardness? Like, how'd you get into the practice of it? Yeah, I

Willie Burnley Jr  8:11  

like, did it for a while without having any relationship, where I was just like reading a lot, and like learning concepts and learning the language, and being, like, honestly, so fascinated mentally by polyamory. And then when I had my first, like, polyamorous relationship, we never, like, dated anyone else. But we were like, no, no, you can do it. Like, no, I support you. Go ahead, go on a date. Like, Oh, you like that person. Try it and then. But we were like, really still trying to, like, figure out how to talk about it, how to like, feel about it. The first time I hooked up with somebody else who I was not in a relationship with, I remember I wrote a letter to my partner. Was

Ishik  8:53  

it a physical letter? Like a handwritten physical letter? I think

Willie Burnley Jr  8:57  

it was like, probably typed or an email or something I don't know, and I want to, like, really explain, like, I'm going to do this with this other person who I have a really strong connection with, but I want you to know this isn't, like, a fault of yours. This isn't me saying you're not enough. This is me just exploring this thing that we both agreed to.

Genevieve  9:19  

How was the

Willie Burnley Jr  9:19  

letter received. I think it was received well. It was received well. But the funny, ironic part was, I was standing on the corner with me, my partner, this person I want to hook up with, and then our friend, who I'd lived with before, he was an ex roommate. And I remember we were all just standing on this corner. I was like, All right, time to go. I'm gonna go with this other person. And my friend was like, But wait, you're dating this other person. Why are you going with them? I was like, no, no, we're just gonna talk. We're gonna go over there. And he's like, but wait, you're dating this person. Why aren't you going home with that person? I mean, it was super awkward in the moment because no one wanted to speak up and explain it, and I didn't either like my partner in. What was going on, but it was, it's really interesting to notice the ways in which people become these vessels to recreate and reproduce and perpetuate social norms and dynamics, like he was genuinely confused and genuinely just trying to understand in but the way that it functioned in that conversation was, this is the way the world works. You are in a relationship. You don't walk away from them with another woman, etc. The funniest and saddest part about it all is I did leave with that person, and then we didn't hook up that night because she felt so bad that we didn't explain it. This son of a gun ruined me twice in one night. I don't know I very much appreciate that experience, because it kind of forced me out of my comfort zone in a lot of ways. And now he, like, knows that I'm like, very out in public about my non monogamy, very chill about it. So much of polyamory has done that I feel like, made me confront things that I didn't know I was worried about. Made me realize that I could have security in relationships that when I was monogamous would have seemed outrageous.

Ishik  11:21  

Yeah, so, so, you

Genevieve  11:23  

know, walk us through. So you you were, you decided when you're single, that this is who you are. You dated one person for a long time and then opened it up. So at what point did, or like, you know, then, then pursued somebody. At what point did solo polyamory? Did you feel like you were solo, polyamorous the entire time? Or did that realization come later?

Willie Burnley Jr  11:43  

When I first moved to Somerville, I was in a relationship that was polyamorous, and we were nesting partners, and then I started to date someone who lived down the street, which was super convenient. I mean, I definitely recommend, if you can

Genevieve  11:59  

date someone who looks right date your neighbors, folks. Yeah, it was great. I was

Willie Burnley Jr  12:03  

like, Okay, it's midnight. I'm gonna go. I'll see you later. I'm gonna go to that house now. And I know that was definitely a time where my polyamory would I got to, like, see it really take shape in in the form of, like, having multiple relationships at once, and, like, figure out what I liked, what I didn't like, how much juggling I could do when you know life was busy by itself, and then now there's multiple partners involved in like, breaking down the idea of like, ownership in relationships, and the way that we have put people try to have possession of other people, was really an entire mental shift for me in terms of how I relate to people now,

Genevieve  12:46  

to this idea, I think a lot of people love the idea of, if you love someone, let it go, and they like want to embody that. And then I talk with people who are like, Yeah, but then their time management sucks, and I feel neglected. Like so in practice, there's, you know, some struggle to not feel like materially threatened. You know, by it, you mentioned the adjustment of juggling, like, once your life was busy and you had a couple partners, so how did you find balance with that so that it still felt good?

Willie Burnley Jr  13:17  

I always tried to, like, do self examination about where my feelings are coming from in relationships, like, am I feeling jealous because they're spending all this time with other people, or am I feeling jealous because we're not spending any time together? I think non monogamous folks have gotten pretty good at understanding that jealousy is a tool as much as any other emotion, and it can be weaponized negatively, but it also can really help us assess what's happening in our relationships. And from my side, I would always be like, Is this something I need to take accountability for with myself and that I'm just like, upset because they're having all these good times with somebody else and I'm just chilling at home? Or is it because we haven't gotten time to speed with each other and to really deepen this relationship in the ways that I wanted?

Ishik  14:06  

For listeners, I think that that's a great just summary, that that idea of jealousy as a tool, right? And I think so often it's this, it's framed as a negative thing, right? It's just bad and, yeah, just like you, like you said, just like any other emotion, it is a tool. What is it useful for? It's to tell us that something is off, right?

Genevieve  14:29  

I like the distinction between like, am I upset that you're having a nice time with them, or am I upset because I want to spend time with you, you know? And those things often get confused. And so when there's that distress of, like, you're with this other person, it can be kind of a mirror or shine a light on, like, wait, I want something with you, and maybe that's what we need to talk about. So I appreciate that distinction.

Willie Burnley Jr  14:53  

Yeah, wisdom born out of real experience. I

Genevieve  14:57  

would love to also know what it's like. For you today, what your polyamory looks like, and especially as you're running for mayor, sounds like a busy life.

Willie Burnley Jr  15:07  

Yeah, it is a really busy life. So yeah, when during an election year, I don't really date that much, or like, at all, pretty much, I uninstall all the dating apps off my phone. I like delete profiles. I like, take myself off the market in every sense, both so I'm not distracting myself, and also because I know I'm not going to be able to give as much as myself as I need to to, like, have a real healthy and robust relationship. So currently, it's on pause. I'm running for office. I'm a city councilor, and I have another job where I teach empowerment, self defense in like, I get, like, hit in the face with elbows and groin strike, and I striked all day. Yeah, I got a lot going on. And so I'm like, I don't know how I could spend enough time to like, give the necessary oxygen to a relationship to like, see it fully blossom. I feel weird when people were like, Oh, you're Paul. You must have, like, what 234, like, how many? And I'm like, dog. I'm tired. That said, you know I, you know I got, I have friends. And, you know, we, you know, are friendly to each other. And, you know, special ways things happen. And, you know, I have great relationship with most of my former partners. And, like, sometimes things happen

Genevieve  16:30  

there, like, poly saturated at zero. Yeah,

Willie Burnley Jr  16:34  

it's funny being a city counselor and trying to date. Like, I've been on apps and people have been like, oh, I voted for you. No. What does that mean? Like, do I have, do we have to date? Like, if I if we don't date, are you gonna knuckle like,

Genevieve  16:51  

you have to please every constituent personally.

Genevieve  16:55  

Thank you so

Ishik  16:56  

much for your vote. I will be swiping left. Unfortunately, however, it is no way a commentary on you or your value. And I definitely appreciate your vote, and I hope to see you out on election day. Thank you so much. Oh, my God, I write each of them a handwritten

Willie Burnley Jr  17:10  

letter, and I'm like, thank you.

Ishik  17:23  

Yeah, you touched on after you started to question these things, and there were, you know, new hurdles, right? And I do think you know, many of the listeners and people who engage with Gen abuse content are earlier in their stages, and they are encountering those hurdles right now. Do you recall any specific hurdles that were coming up at the time after you started to question these things.

Willie Burnley Jr  17:43  

I mean, I remember when I was dating someone named Anna, going on a date with someone else named Anna, but I didn't know it was a date at first. And so I don't always know I met up with somebody who had taken a picture of me at a protest. And so for whatever reason, she couldn't send me the picture. She's like, I got to show you on this camera. And so I met up with her. We looked at the pictures. It was great. It was cool. And then we met up again. And the first time I was like, Oh, this person's cool. Second time I was like, oh, what's happening here? Is this? What is going on? And I realized when she was like, I would invite you in, but I have a roommate, or whatever it was. I was like, oh, no, this is these are dates. I should tell her that I'm in a relationship. And I remember when I told her she was mad, she was like, you basically, like, misled me. And maybe I had these feelings for you, but I can't have these feelings for you because you're dating someone. And I'm like, but I'm polyamorous. Well, you can, you can do whatever you want but but like, I learned very quickly that I was never given a manual to talk about my relationships in a this, like, very self aware way and with intentionality. And that's something I very, very much appreciate non monogamy for, is it sort of forces you to think more intentionally, you're going to hit hurdles, and sometimes it's going to be hard. Sometimes it's not always going to go the right way the first time. But I mean, especially, just like being at that beginning stage and like trying to figure it out for yourself, it gets better, in my opinion.

Genevieve  19:17  

We'll insert a rainbow and sparkles.

Willie Burnley Jr  19:19  

Please. Insert rainbow. But there's one that I feel like I have to bring up because of the name of this podcast. I'm like, How much do I say? I don't want to out too many folks. But I remember being in a work environment many years ago, and one of my co workers outed me as polyamorous, because they are polyamorous. And they're like, Yeah, I'm polyamorous, like, Willie. And I'm like, why

Ishik  19:46  

did why am I catching straight?

Willie Burnley Jr  19:50  

I'm just trying to, you know, get by, learn how to do this job, etc, etc. Why you blew me into this? But because of that, I ended up having to talk about. Owed it to my co workers a bit more. And I remember one of them, she asked me about it, and she was like, so you're polyamorous, like, what's that like? What is, how's that work? And I was like, Well, this is how it works for me. And there's, you know, a lot of different ways it can work. It's kind of like designing your own relationship. Here's a lot of these concepts and formations and language, etc, etc. And I remember her being like, yeah, I could never do that. Yeah. Just like, not even, I mean, I've gotten so many worse microaggressions from people when I explain that I'm polyamorous, or when they find out that I'm polyamorous than that. But I remember her just genuinely being like, Yeah, that's great for you. I can never do that. I'm too jealous. I'm too I get too in my head all these things. Six years later, we were meeting up again to talk, and she was like, hey, just so you know, I'm, like, in an open relationship now.

Genevieve  20:55  

Oh, the turntables, trying

Willie Burnley Jr  20:59  

it out, and it's, it's kind of working. I like it. And okay, you know, I It's one of the best joys in the world to me, when people realize that they have so much more capacity in them to do certain things than they thought. And again, I feel like I was the same way when I was monogamous, the con. I didn't have the concept of polyamory, but when I first heard about it, I was like, Cool, poly people exist, fine, but I didn't think I had the capacity or the mindset to be able to do something like that. At the time, I didn't think that. And I'm sure my friend and coworker, who was like, I can never do that, she wasn't even trying to be dismissive, although she did come off that way. But when you learn that you have the capacity to do more than you thought, or live in a way that you didn't realize you could, I think it is one of the, like, most beautiful examples of, like, growth and expansion of a person. And so when she told me that I wasn't like, told you, so

Ishik  22:00  

I mean, I would have been, I would have been, I would have been, like, a little tiny

Willie Burnley Jr  22:03  

bit, but I was just really happy and excited for her, because it I knew that she was entering, I mean, not the easiest way to live life, per se, but one in which she was going to be able to have more love in her life, I thought. And I love the transition from I could never to, and now I am. Now we're doing it, and this feels good. You

Ishik  22:26  

know, honestly, I agree, and I think even just the transition from I could never to, maybe I could right, like you are not bound by the mores of polite society, right? That you you can design a life for yourself that fits you correctly, right? We can and, and, but as also, as just a side note, I do think it's very funny where, like, you didn't bring out this fucking conversation. You didn't, like, tell everyone about they came to you and you started the fucking conversation in the car, right? She starts it, and then she's like, Yeah, but I could never and it's like, oh, fuck her. Like,

Genevieve  22:59  

did you need me for this. This is

Ishik  23:02  

a you thing. You're handling this.

Genevieve  23:06  

Well, I'm curious. You said that there was a time you thought you couldn't do it, or you thought you didn't have that capacity. What? What changed? Yeah,

Willie Burnley Jr  23:13  

I mean, in specifically with me, like, I thought I would be too jealous. Like, well, I didn't say any of this because I wasn't never that gross, I would put it. But, you know, there's a lot of like, I think cliche guys were like, I couldn't, I couldn't share my woman, or,

Ishik  23:30  

yeah, I could never let my woman get fucked by some other guy. Yeah,

Willie Burnley Jr  23:33  

like, I never said that. I never thought that, per se, but like, it was along the same lines of, I would get too jealous and too angry if my partner was with somebody else. I don't know if I would have been able to handle that, but it took having experiences where I really looked inside of myself and said, What is it that's making me unhappy in this moment? Is it because I don't have a partner, or is it because I think that I'm not valuable without a person. Am I unhappy because I'm not possessing another human being and saying that's my person, and no one is doing that to me? Or is it because I need to learn to like be able to generate my own sense of self satisfaction and like worth without other people doing it for me. And once I started to ask those questions and like, spend a little bit of time with myself in that way, it took down some of my, I think, biggest barriers for for trying polyamory out.

Genevieve  24:35  

Yeah, so you, you mentioned that it kind of was forcing you to confront some ideas of ownership. So once a partner started spending time with other people, did that come up for you? This? The these old monogamous kind of feelings.

Willie Burnley Jr  24:52  

So when I first had to meet my partner's partner, my meta more, I remember being really nervous about it ahead of time. And, like, really unsure of, like, how it would go again. I'm a cis man that was dating someone who was dating someone who else who was a cis man, and I just remember, oh, male socialization, oh no. What if I meet this guy and I don't like him and then we fight? Like, what if it gets, like, the most dramatic thing, who's gonna be the alpha? Yeah, I was like, Oh no. What's gonna happen? I'm gonna meet this guy and get pissed off, and then we're gonna like, like, destroy our relationships. And then I met this person and I realized, oh, this person is completely different for me. I don't like, have anything really negative to say about them. Generally speaking, I don't know them very well, so maybe I would. But it was really helpful for me when I met my first metamour, to realize that my partner wasn't just trying to replace me with someone else, like a different version of myself. It taught me, oh, wait, this person actually just likes different things, and that's okay. I got very comfortable with the idea that I don't have to fit all of everyone's needs. I can just fit the ones that I fit, and if they want to explore other dynamics that fulfill them in other ways, that's good too.

Ishik  26:13  

Yeah, and it's super clear like that. A lot of it is also tied to self acceptance about your own values, who you are, and I'll speak for myself, I know, for me, it's been a lot of like, accepting that, yeah, I'm not going to be everyone's cup of tea, right? Some people are going to look at me or hear me, or talk to me, and be like, This guy is obnoxious. And I was like, Okay, that's great. Like, I'm glad that you know now to not talk to me, because I know tons of people fucking love me. I happen to think I'm pretty great. So, you know, I think that journey of confronting the fear of replacement can be really instrumental in that, you know, paired journey of self love, you know, and self actualization of, yeah, this is who I am, and

Willie Burnley Jr  27:04  

I'm pretty great. The idea of, like, having these relationships, and people being able to have free range, and then also coming back that, to me, is real security in so many ways, like this, idea that, yeah, they can have multiple partners, but they're still coming back here, because there's obviously something that they really value about this relationship. I think even when I was monogamous, I probably, you know, I was worried about because, like so much of how we're taught about relationships, is built on, I think, a foundation of insecurity and fear of loss, of failure, of rejection, and the kind of natural proving of like, I'm coming back home, or I'm going to meet you after the day, but we're going to talk about it, or we're going to, you know, discuss anything we need to to prepare or heal so we can continue this journey together. It's so reassuring. I think for me,

Ishik  27:58  

I think a lot of this conversation, especially with regards to your relationship to non monogamy to polyamory, has been about this idea of a kind of self actualization, realizing who you are, what you want, and then designing that life for yourself and so kind of in the spirit of that when you aren't maybe so busy in the future, when you're not running a very successful and to be one race for mayor when you have a little bit more time, and if you had a match wand of how you would design your life, your romantic life like? Is there an idea of what that would look like in your mind, some specific structure, or some specific way that that would look that you can imagine, or is it just sort of like a whatever comes my way, I'm open to kind of thing, yeah, if

Willie Burnley Jr  28:47  

it's funny adding that last part, because if I was younger, I would have been like, yeah, you know, whatever happens happens. And, you know, I'm go with the flow. And I am pretty go with the flow when it comes to, like, social and interpersonal stuff. But I definitely have realized there are certain things I want out in life, for long term partners, like, they would either have to be okay with or, like, have to be like, peripheral to. Like, you don't have to sign up for all of it, but some of it's gonna you know you're in the splash zone, so you're gonna get,

Ishik  29:20  

I like

Willie Burnley Jr  29:23  

that. Keep that one I've never really had, like, what I imagined be, like, full blown, like, kitchen table polyamory, but I would love to have that one day. It's funny, some a lot of my exes, like, really, like each other. I remember the first time, like, I introduced two people, actually, I think I was dating one of them, and then I introduced them to an ex, and she was like, we're gonna unionize. And I was like, oh,

Genevieve  29:45  

no, all your exes,

Ishik  29:49  

I'm sorry. Does that make you like the bourgeois of this relationship? Yeah,

Willie Burnley Jr  29:56  

I'm the few. They're the many. Yeah. I. Yeah, I say that to say, like, I would love to to have space where people can, like, really, either cohabitate or, like, just be regular parts of each other's lives, romantically and otherwise. Because for me, I think like consistency is like a like my love language and like how I like grow relationships, like being able to have that regularity to it, I would like that for multiple relationships, so that they feel reinforcing in a way of each other, you know. But I also, I don't know, besides being a socialist and being an abolitionist and being polyamorous and being queer city councilor, like, I'm pretty Normie, aside from,

Genevieve  30:45  

like, I guess Normie is relative. It's

Willie Burnley Jr  30:47  

very relative. I'm a Somerville Normie, kind of, maybe. But like, I don't know, when I was a little kid, I was like, I want to get married and I want to have kids, and, like, I think I still do want all the same things I did when I was younger. It's just that how that's gonna look, ultimately, with the way that I'm living now, is probably gonna look differently than how I thought about it when I was five. There's probably gonna be more people involved, which, frankly, I mean, I don't have kids, but I've seen kids. They're a lot of work. It'd be helpful to have more than two

Ishik  31:20  

people. I've seen kids. I've seen them. There's something. I've seen them. They're around. I've seen them.

Willie Burnley Jr  31:26  

I've met them once or twice, and I have six nieces and nephews. So I've also, like, been involved with, like, seeing them go from this to this, and it's pretty wild. But like, yeah, it'd be, I would love folks who are either really in, like, really into that or like, I don't want to be like a main caregiver, but I can, like, be on the side and come around, sometimes babysit or something. I want to really build, like, a an ecosystem of like, support in my life, both romantically and otherwise. And I think polyamory is going to play hopefully a focal point in that, but it's, it's to be determined. You know, I gotta wait and see, like what comes my way.

Ishik  32:18  

You have a very unique position amongst all of the guests we've had. When it comes to community building, you really have a very active role in that, right? Because you are really working hard to shape the community you live in that you call home, not to dance around it. You have Somerville is kind of notorious for its protections of polyamorous people, and I'd love to just hear a little bit about some of the process of that from the start to now,

Willie Burnley Jr  32:47  

Somerville did become the first city in the United States to pass a domestic partnership ordinance that allowed more than two people to be in a domestic partnership. And that happened we when the city was trying to make this domestic partnership ordinance, it was going to be a very normy domestic partnership ordinance. And then my colleague, JT Scott, who is polyamorous, also asked in one of the meetings, wait, why only two and of the other counselors, I think, particularly knowing JT and knowing their family relationship structure, were like, Yeah, I don't really have an argument for why it should only be two people. Why not more than two people? And it really just took someone asking that question to change the dynamic of how this law would be implemented, and to really set the course, in a lot of ways, for this burgeoning movement of non monogamous folks who want to have legal rights and protections. I was just a resident of Somerville at the time, and I remember seeing this cross the headlines. I saw it on like CNN and all these things, all these national news outlets. And I remember Ariel and I, who were living with each other at the time, were like, Oh my gosh, did you see this? This is incredible, like we live in the place that is honoring our relationship. It I, when I started the idea of having rights, legal protections and rights, was so far beyond the horizon that it wasn't even a real conversation because of the fear that it would bring more scrutiny and more stigma to actually try to argue for those protections Three years later, were partially where I came in as a counselor to kind of fill the gaps that that Domestic Partnership ordinance created because we had a situation where more than two people could be in a domestic partnership, but if they were, there were no legal protections around that. You know if, if the City of Somerville, for example, had an employee who was in a domestic partnership with three other people, legally speaking, the city could just be like, yeah, no, fired, no. Now this is a city that I would hope would never have done something like that, but the fact that they could, the fact that there's not any employment protections around this thing that we have put on a national the radar was an oversight. And we found the language to introduce the Somerville, and we worked it in such a way that, you know, in 2023 we passed, I think I want to say four or five polyamorous laws for protections in housing, policing and employment for all city employees in Somerville.

Genevieve  35:37  

Wow. How did, how did that show up for policing also, so

Willie Burnley Jr  35:41  

if someone is polyamorous and having an interaction with the cops, the cops are not allowed to use that as a basis for any kind of, you know, judgments against them in I that was really important for us to include, because so many polyamorous people with children, especially worry that any interactions with law enforcement might result in losing custody of a child or having their family split up. I know so many parents, particularly who are not out because of that, worry about what it might do to their family and to their children.

Ishik  36:18  

Yeah, I know that. You know people definitely are like, oh, what that like? They can't fathom the idea that there can be repercussions, social or like otherwise, sometimes more tangible than just social repercussions. But you know, somebody thinks that it's disgusting or wrong, and then they call Child Services, and then that child services agent also thinks it's disgusting and wrong, they have the authority to take your fucking kids away, right? And so I think those kinds of protections are really, really important. I thought, you know, you were talking, you're describing the initial set of laws, or the initial law that was that were introduced in 2020 and you highlighted how it just kind of took this one question of like, why not? I'll actually push a little further and say that it wasn't just that there was this one question. It was that they knew someone in the room right there who they understood was in some fringe freak there was their colleague, their friend, even, who was asking this question. And like, it's a lot harder to discriminate or harm somebody or like deny them potential rights or protections when you're looking at them right in the face and you know them and even like them, and so you know, I never am a proponent of pushing somebody to out themselves if they are not comfortable or they don't feel safe, right? Like that is always top priority number one is you have to protect yourself first and foremost, right? But the degree that to which people are able to and willing to speak up and let the people in their life, their their family, their co workers, their their friends know, hey, I'm I'm polyamorous, or, you know, any, any kind of non normative, I'm trans, I'm gay, whatever it is, right? That's been the basis, the foundation, of so many of these fights for protections and rights. Not to this isn't to be a PSA to tell people to do it, but, like, it's definitely an added benefit.

Genevieve  38:13  

Yeah, it will. I'm just so heartened by your story too, because the idea, I think a lot of times we can see news headlines of like, oh, wow, that's a great thing that happened. And then you boil it back down, it's like someone was just in a room. One person was in a room and asked one question, and, like, the value of just being in that room, you know? And it really doesn't take this mob of people to, you know, fight for this, like, not always that we could slowly in a kind of boring setting, probably, I assume, you know, I was imagining, like, squeaky chairs and the air conditioner and no art on the walls, and it's just like, boring, and then it has this ripple effect where you're talking to your girlfriend at the time of, like, wow, we're being protected, you know. So I'm just heartened by that, because the entry point to that sounds so doable, and I think people don't always picture the entry point to that. You know

Willie Burnley Jr  39:09  

that is the goal when someone is in that room and has this knowledge base and experience because of who they are, and can actually bring that to bear on a policy discussion, these systems that are not all redeemable, I'll tell you that, but the ones that we can use to our advantage, it is really important to have folks in there who can speak from a perspective that is not already being represented, because it just took one person who had this experience to legally change the course of I don't want to over blow it, but US history, in a sense. And then three years later, when we passed our non discrimination ordinances, we had people who flew in from LA from trains down from New York or up from New York. People came from far beyond Somerville to literally. Just be in the room to watch that law pass. And that was such a powerful, powerful moment to to be part of something that I know so many people didn't even think was possible just a few years ago. It was because we had someone, in this case, me, who was like, Wait, we should? We need to do more on this, like, who's looking into this? What can we do here? Who do I need to talk to? Oh, you got to talk to those people. Maybe we'll get around to it. No, I'm going to talk to them today, because this is important, and it's something that we have the power to actually do. I am a firm believer as a city councilor that when people trust you enough to give you a little bit of power. It's your responsibility to take that power and to use it to its maximalist benefit. For those people in, you know, in maybe in November, everyone's like, yeah, we're tired of this guy. Let's send him home. But while I'm in this seat, I'm gonna fight like hell to make sure that people are safe, feel honored and protected by the neighbors, and know that the values that we all share are going to be pushed for with real fervor. On the electoral political level, the

Ishik  41:12  

fight for rights is not some isolated like you do this one form of rights or this one form of power, right? It's like we need to use all forms of our power to gain all forms of these rights for all people. And I see that in your in your campaign, in your platform, in your time as a counselor, I don't really have a question. Was there a question

Genevieve  41:33  

there? He's admiring, good. It's good. Good job.

Willie Burnley Jr  41:36  

Thank you. No, it is really good. And you know, I for the listen only, folks. I'm black. You won't be able to hear that necessarily, but I'm black, and the struggle for racial justice in the United States has always been one in which we've stood on the shoulders of giants, and we've all we've benefited from those who came before us in the fights that they fought, maybe easier to fight the fights that we're in now, that same principle is true intersectionally, the right for same sex marriage, in a lot of ways, is legally like based upon the right to like marry outside of Your race in the United States, and the the rights to not have racial profiling is deeply intertwined with the right to not be profiled based on your country of origin or your color, or all these things. And so all of these fights push each other forward, and like help build upon each other, and I feel very connected to that, that history and the reminder that it's not just something long, long ago that, you know, some other people did some other place. It's something that we live in the shadows of and are building today. And we have, I think, personally, a responsibility to do that ethically and unambiguously, to push forward these movements. And you know, any little bit of contribution that we can do to that is going to make the fights for the next generation that much easier, I think,

Ishik  43:12  

with you know, the political situation in America with regards to ICE raids and anti immigration sentiment and the overreach of the Trump regime, and I think that that has and fascism right not to dance around it. It's particularly felt in Somerville. I know us. Turk is from Somerville. She was abducted in Somerville as one of the for listeners who aren't familiar, one of the first very high profile abductions of a legal resident of the United States by ICE she

Willie Burnley Jr  43:50  

wrote, along with, I think, four other people in op ed that was really just saying, hey, students at Our school voted to divest from companies that were contributing to violations of international law. The university should follow suit with the vote that we took. You know, she basically said, I believe in democracy and I don't believe in war crimes. And when I was watching her bail hearing after she'd been in prison for over a month, over 1000 miles away, in a cell that exacerbated her asthma. According to doctors, the judge in that case said the only piece of evidence that the federal government put in the case was that op ed Wow, it was the only piece of evidence they ever said put forward to say that she should be deported from this country. It is beyond parity, and it's beyond appalling, and it's connected back to the people of Palestine even more, if we live in a democracy and we can't even stop a genocide that our country is funding, what is the point of this? Democracy. I understand why people feel downtrodden when they think about all the things that are going on. But I also just want to say that everyone has the power to impact the world a little bit better every single day, and as all these things are happening, if we stand up and if we know our neighbors and if we fight together, we can get them out. ICE has actually come to some real high school multiple times in the last few months, and we've chased them out at least once, if not twice, just by having neighbors show up and really cause a commotion.

Ishik  45:38  

It's so easy with so many with the fire hose of awful shit we hear all the time to out of almost necessity, compartmentalize and see things as a concept, but when it drills down into the real human experience, The real human tragedy, sometimes it can get really overwhelming, but it also can be really heartening when we see the humanity of like helping, just reaching out. You know, it's been on my mind a little bit, actually, because just recently, Genevieve had a post that went kind of viral on instagram about the Edelweiss Pratt and the Edelweiss pirates, and it was, like, it was a resistance group. It was like a youth resistance group in Germany. I there was enough people that I saw make the same comment, which really got under my fucking skin, and now I get a chance as another event, ooh, which was that they were like, Yeah, but like, what did that end that? Like, end the Nazi regime. Like, did that stop? Like, it took a war to stop the Nazis took an army. It's like, yeah, sure, man. But also that probably helped a fucking person, right? Like, if that car didn't run and it got to the place late, that's one person who maybe fucking survived. Like, How heartless can you be to see of any form of resistance that can potentially stop or slow down, or, you know, impede the actions of a person trying to do horrors in the world and not see some effort having an effect. And so I think, you know, it can be easy to see the fire hose of horrible shit and then to feel like it's, oh, we can't do anything because I can't stop the entire hose. It's like, bro, I mean, you can get a bucket. It is always very heartening to see people like yourself who are not like, oh, well, fuck it. I'm throwing my hands up. I can't do anything. It's like, No, I can do something, right? I can do something, and I'm going to do what I can do. And I really respect that a lot

Willie Burnley Jr  47:41  

for me, especially at this point in my life. Like, I do not have time for nihilism. I like, I don't have time for the depressing nihilism of, there's nothing we can do in the world. And I don't have time for this, like, cool nihilism where it's like, yeah, things suck, but like, you know, what are you going to do about it doesn't like it's not going to actually help. We live in a world made of systems that were all created by human beings, whether it's capitalism, whether it's our housing market, whether it's war, these are all things that people made and people can unmake. I again, I've been very lucky to be able to see how even a small group of people can have huge impacts on their community, even beyond their community. And I I just truly believe that we all have the potential to contribute to the world and make it a more positive place. And sure, there's a lot of stuff that I personally can't do or can affect to the fullest extent, but there's, there's always a little bit. And you know, I fight for that little bit day by day.

Genevieve  48:53  

Thank you so much, Lily for joining us today. It was so nice to learn more about you and also learn more about your work.

Willie Burnley Jr  49:00  

I feel very appreciative to have the opportunity to talk to both of you, the work of normalizing non monogamy, the work of like, exploring the different histories that are maybe out of reach for a lot of people. Like, I think it's really important, and I am grateful to be like one small part of that longer story with you all. Oh no. I wish you both all the best and hope that the work you do continues to, like, inspire people, make people feel like, excited and hopeful. Thank

Ishik  49:32  

you so much. I mean, I throw the same thing back to you. I can't tell you how many people were so inspired and touched by some of the work that you've done in Somerville. So thank you for your work and for inspiring fucking me.

Genevieve  49:45  

How dare you say dare you compliment us?

Ishik  49:49  

You inspire me other way around?

Genevieve  49:53  

Yeah, well, I'd love to invite you to tell everybody where they can find you. Tell everybody that you know. Is in your community about the election, but yeah, where people can follow you and learn more?

Willie Burnley Jr  50:05  

Yeah, so if you're on Instagram, Willie for Somerville, that's Willie W, i, l, o, i e for F, O, R, Somerville, s, O, M, E, R, V, I, L, L, E, and Willie for somerville.com like there, you'll be able to find my link tree, which has like how you can donate. We really, really are trying to have a mayor who is a renter, who actually lives the struggles of most people, who comes from these marginalized communities, queer person of color and who can is going to fight for a future that we can all live in, and would love that support and help of anyone in the United States or who is a US citizen to support

Ishik  50:49  

us. We're definitely not gonna beat radicalism with with milk toast, shit. We gotta. We gotta push back a lot harder. And you know, Willie's our man there. So and

Genevieve  51:00  

for everyone who doesn't live nearby, just follow along to be inspired. Maybe you'll work locally similarly and donate,

Ishik  51:11  

in addition to going to check out Willie. Willie for somerville.com and and his Instagram, if you are looking for more polyamory content, Genevieve, as always, is on Tiktok and Instagram at chill polyamory. She's also on YouTube, where she does long form video essays about representation of non monogamy in media. That is also chill polyamory on

Genevieve  51:38  

YouTube. So if you want to check out those projects and support all those projects, as well as this podcast, you can go to patreon.com/chill polyamory. That is also where I give you bonus goodies, extra private videos, personal stories, as well as the option for one on one pen pals and peer support. So that is patreon.com/chill

Ishik  52:00  

polyamory, also a treasure trove of valuable resources, if

Genevieve  52:03  

hundreds of resources. I've been posting every week since 2018,

Ishik  52:07  

seven years. So if you want more resources to get through some of those struggles we're talking about,

Genevieve  52:13  

you're in salesmanship mode today. I mean, we're talking

Ishik  52:15  

about field organizing. I'm just like, oh, wait just one more second. You know your polling location? Um, so you're in such a better mood than when we started out of the stress of setting up anyways, on this much more positive note, this has been I could never and for everyone listening, remember that just because you've never done something before doesn't mean that you can't do it. Bye!